Pathfinder 2E Is It Time for PF2 "Essentials"?

[The-Magic-Sword]

On the subject of PC vs. NPC creation, I dont mind NPCs having a simplified system as long as the final numbers are comparable. If one of the player characters is absent from a scene, I want to be able to hand that player a guardsman to play, and it should work out of the box. How those numbers were made up? I couldn't really care less as longa s they make sense in the story. 3E's insitance that you build monsters like characters was one of the main flaws with it in my book.

What I actually play these days is Action, which is pretty much DnD reimagined using Feng Shui as a base ruleset. Though it nominally does other genres, DnD is what we have actually use it for. Character creation in Action is entirely points-based, but there is something equivalent to level. In a lot of ways, Action characters are built like NPCs in other games - there are very few restrictions and its the player's responsibility to make it into a cohesive whole. Fits my table.

The free League (Fria Ligan) used to appear at game cons in Sweden maybe 20 years ago with innovative but weird scenarios. Doing things like Twilight 2000 today, they have become much more conventional - but others in the group still do the wierd naughty word. Good kids!

PF2e takes a similar approach in that the numbers for NPCs and the numbers for PCs end up pretty similar, but it isn't 1 to 1, but you can see the logic of how the creature was put together-- e.g. their strength score and their attack bonus make sense, they're occasionally a point or two off, but that makes sense since in the end they are decoupled.

 

[Starfox]

[About the tactical game feeling more game] Gonna put a guess out and say "more options": there are just more moves that balloon out the tactical aspect of the game. So many class feats create new actions to use...

This might be the key. You get more actions that are exclusive and siloed. Suddenly, at 7th level, a Ranger can do this stuff that no-one else can attempt, ever. 4E also worked this way. This might be what alienated me from both.

If this is so, it is kind of funny as in the Action homebrew I mentioned, there is something called schticks that are exactly this; new actions you can perform. The difference is anyone can learn all actions. There are no classes and no prerequisites. Of course, if you lack the skill to use the schtick well, it will be useless. But you can still learn it.

 

[dave2008]

How much complexity is justifiable, even if its efficient, is of course down to taste and how much you value the kind of depth you can get from a rules system (which isn't the be all / end all.)

Yep, until PF2 came out I thought I wanted more complexity. PF2 is basically the system I fantasized about designing myself (on these very forums actually), but now that I have it I realize that it is not a system I really want to play. I love the design, just not that interested in playing it.

My biggest problem with 5e, now that I think about it, is that its so much more complex than say PBTA or other rules lite systems... but its not especially deeper than them, while managing to be a little simpler than other d20 games of its ilk, but losing out massively in the depth that arguably makes them attractive in the first place.

I can't speak for other systems, but with a few house rules it (5e) has the perfect balance of depth and complexity for my current group. I don't see that group moving to another system. I wanted to give PF2 a try, but they wouldn't have it. Now, the more I've gotten to know the system, I've lost interest in playing it myself. That may chance once I get back to in person games, but it seems less and less likely as time goes on.

 

[dave2008]

If this is so, it is kind of funny as in the Action homebrew I mentioned, there is something called schticks that are exactly this; new actions you can perform. The difference is anyone can learn all actions. There are no classes and no prerequisites. Of course, if you lack the skill to use the schtick well, it will be useless. But you can still learn it.

Though I am fascinated by such systems, they are classes and not PF or D&D. If you want classes, at this point, I think you just need to look to a different system. Let D&D and PF be the premium class based systems they are.

 

[Starfox]

Deleted. I need to resist the urge to talk about my own homebrew when that is not the subject of the discussion.

 

[dave2008]

Deleted. I need to resist the urge to talk about my own homebrew when that is not the subject of the discussion.

I feel your pain

 

[Zardnaar]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that there is a definite trend for people to be happy to see things fail that they personally don't enjoy, and that saddens me

That's the internet.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Schadenfreude is essential to the human condition.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Schadenfreude is essential to the human condition.

I want to tell you you are wrong so I can point and laugh.

 

[Windjammer]

Two quick follow ups.

First, thanks to all the posters who engaged my questions re picking up monster gears and taming creatures in the wild. Very interesting and much appreciated.

Secondly, an additional reason why I think PF2 hasn’t caught on that much: very poor page to price ratio once you move beyond the CRB (classic loss leader). I own 3 volumes in the PF2 lost omens series and think they are really good. However, two things stand out:
1. Art direction has gone downhill. There’s lots of great art in PF2 (some of it better than any PF1 era stuff) but they also feature artists with no skill and understanding of: proportions, perspective, and even placement of heads. This isn’t rocket science, these are the 101 drawing sins that beginners books warn against.
2. Couple that to an outrageously high price point—I got Inner Sea Gods 1E in the mail today and boy oh boy does that deliver where 2E would roll that content out in four thin hardbacks instead—and you get lots of people scratching their head why they should pay that much when the text is basically free/PRD.

Historically, Paizo has been strong in the art department but it looks like they let some important people go. I’m sure that doesn’t help move books off shelves.