Is it WotC’s responsibility to bring people to the hobby?

[jasper]

holy D20s Leviatham I DID NOT know I had a RESPONSIBILTY TO GROW THE HOBBY. I guess I going to get my shot gun (skeet hobby) go to local RC airfield (rc plane hobby) and start making them use my Exercise bike (Health hobby), while is sit back and drink my mead (home brew hobby) at gun pt. BUT who do I draft off the street for:
Xbox 360 (video game hobby) you forgot the console wars
Star Trek collection ( Star trek fandom hobby)
Working in the flower garden ( gardening hobby)
Etc Etc
Question to all those who think they have the responsibility to grow the hobby.
How many other hobby items are gather dust in your house or that you just sold off?

 

[ggroy]

I kinda agree with your main premise, though. I always homebrew, but in general, I find campaign setting and splatbooks more useful, because they give me tons of items that I can "borrow" and adapt into my homebrewing. I never run modules--with the exception of a handful that I like doing for one-shots from time to time--and don't see much use in owning more than I already do. I probably own more splatbooks than any other type of game material, but the majority of what I buy now are setting related books--mostly by Paizo these days, but that's only because most of the rest of the companies who produced stuff I liked for d20/D&D no longer do so.

Same here. I was mostly buying setting type books for many years until recently.

Over the years I went scavenging through bargain bins searching for setting type books, especially after the d20 glut hit rock bottom. At the time, there was lots of good stuff for really dirt cheap.

I too was regularly picking up Pathfinder setting type books for several years. But over the last two years or so, I came to the realization that I was just buying the same style of setting content over and over again, with Paizo pumping out the latest iterations. (I stopped buying Pathfinder books altogether, just before the second edition of the Golarion Inner Sea campaign setting book was released). Besides the cool artwork, it seemed like a waste of money buying setting books which covered topics I've already seen numerous times before, and/or can homebrew very easily.

 

[Console Cowboy]

How many other hobby items are gather dust in your house or that you just sold off?

You made me cry.

 

[Leviatham]

holy D20s Leviatham I DID NOT know I had a RESPONSIBILTY TO GROW THE HOBBY. I guess I going to get my shot gun (skeet hobby) go to local RC airfield (rc plane hobby) and start making them use my Exercise bike (Health hobby), while is sit back and drink my mead (home brew hobby) at gun pt. BUT who do I draft off the street for:
Xbox 360 (video game hobby) you forgot the console wars
Star Trek collection ( Star trek fandom hobby)
Working in the flower garden ( gardening hobby)
Etc Etc
Question to all those who think they have the responsibility to grow the hobby.
How many other hobby items are gather dust in your house or that you just sold off?

Since I doubt I could possibly sound any more obnoxious than you, I won't bother to reply to the dribble you just wasted time typing.

 

[Desdichado]

Since I doubt I could possibly sound any more obnoxious than you, I won't bother to reply to the dribble you just wasted time typing.

If you blow off a valid point because you don't like the tone, well... you'll miss an awful lot of valid points. This, IMO, was one.

 

[Leviatham]

If you blow off a valid point because you don't like the tone, well... you'll miss an awful lot of valid points. This, IMO, was one.

I don't feel he was making a point. He was taking the piss as far as I am concerned.

You made a similar point a while ago and, although I disagree with it, I replied a couple of times. I rather miss points than engage with people who get into a conversation in that manner.

Also, I didn't miss his point, I got it perfectly (if he thinks he knows sarcasm, he's got no idea how many lessons I have to teach him). I just won't bother replying to someone who behaves like that.

 

[Umbran]

holy D20s Leviatham I DID NOT know I had a RESPONSIBILTY TO GROW THE HOBBY.

If you overdo it, you look like a bit of a jerk, you know.

Since I doubt I could possibly sound any more obnoxious than you, I won't bother to reply to the dribble you just wasted time typing.

And, if you call a valid point, however it is couched, "dribble", you aren't being much better. You;'d be much better served to *actually* not dignify it with a response, rather than get into the nonsense of responding that you won't respond.


So, everyone, how about we try to conduct this like a civil conversation, between people who have a modicum of respect for each other, and who want to discuss (as opposed as people who want to be "Right"). Or don't, and allow us to ban your behinds from the discussion.

Is that easy enough to understand? If not, please PM or e-mail a moderator. Thanks.

 

[WizarDru]

II understand the RPG is different and all that, but adversiting pays off. It is there for a reason.

Spending millions in advertising is pretty crazy unless you are in a prime market. RPGs are far from it. Spending a moderate and targeted amount of money in relevant media and cheaper advertising could render good results.

I think you underestimate how small RPGs are in the market. Let's start with this essay by Ryan Dancey. Regardless of whether or not I agree with all of his conclusions, he brings some relevant data to the conversation. WotC has spent years trying to find marketing that works and that is market efficient. One thing Dancey highlights, which should be obvious, is that D&D has a much tougher market to work with; expecting D&D to expand it's audience as easily and dramatically now as it did in the 1970s and early 1980s simply isn't realistic in a world with so many choices, when I can play an RPG on my phone or run a WoW raid with 60 other people. Further, the market has radically changed: fewer distributors, fewer stores and now online vendors who offer deeper discounts but with no network externalities that Dancey mentions.

D&D remains the flagship product of the RPG industry. Pathfinder is currently beating it in sales from quarter-to-quarter, but I believe that it's never enjoyed positions on the NYT bestseller lists, while 4E has. The problem here is not advertising for brand awareness. D&D HAS that. Here's a demonstration for you. If I go to Toys 'R' Us, with 1500 stores globally and more than 14 Billion US dollars in revenue and enter the following terms:

Dungeons and Dragons
Pathfinder
Cthulhu

TL;DR version: D&D has several hits, Pathfinder has non-RPG hits for some baby equipment and Cthulhu has two hits, one for a cell-phone holder and another for Cthulhu Munchkin. You may notice that for D&D, THE ACTUAL RPG IS NOT LISTED THERE. Instead they list Ravenloft, an anthology of the old 'Gold Box' games and the D&D-themed Heroscape supplement. Again, because the D&D brand is stronger than the actual game. Cthulhu has more recognition by this metric, which honesty isn't a great one, but it's illustrative for our purposes here.

Here's another point for you: what happens when we enter Role-Playing Game? We find where all those potential players have gone, perhaps. Who do you think has a bigger advertising budget in the Seattle-Tacoma game area? WotC or Nintendo? [quick hint: the one of them was bought in the last decade by a large toy company has the smaller one] The problem here is that D&D has competition from a lot of other venues for gamers and is no longer winning that fight.

WotC has spent advertising on their products before: to little benefit in terms of sales. Conventional advertising doesn't push sales in many cases, because most of the potential customers KNOW about D&D. They simply don't choose to play it based on the advertising. I've seen ads in comic books, gaming magazines and even on television. None of these generated an ROI that was worth the tiny margins that D&D operates under. From what some WotC employees have posted here on ENW, it's clear that M:tG has always been the big cash cow for the company...and traditional advertising had only marginal games for that. The problem is not reaching their intended audience, perhaps, but convincing that audience that D&D is a game they should spend time and money on in favor of other, often more convenient choices.

Understand I think that WotC NEEDS to grow the hobby, for reasons Hobo already explained up-thread. The market leader benefits the most...and getting more D&D players helps the hobby. Most gamers I know started with D&D and moved outwards to smaller games...or were brought into the hobby by those who had. But I have no great ideas how WotC can do that, short of releasing a good game and promoting it through a variety of specialized channels. I'd wager that the Pax Prime Penny-Arcade gaming podcast sessions probably did more to sell D&D 4E than the sum total of their print advertising, though I have no way to gauge that.

The long and short of it is that D&D and Pathfinder together don't sell huge numbers in the grand scheme of things. They have dedicated customers, but they are a niche market like comic books. Take a look at some of these numbers from Acaeum. D&D, at its height, was never clearing huge numbers of books and certainly aren't doing so now.

I think a large misunderstanding from many fans is overestimating the size of the RPG market and WotC's budget to increase it.

 

[jasper]

Small companies in the US do work together or at least have friendly relationships. I know a number of people from other small rpg companies and we work together in a variety of ways. One thing I have seen is booth sharing at cons.

I........
That said I think small companies banding together to grow the hobby is a great idea. I would be eager to hear any suggestions you have (as well as any venues you have in mind). My health has put some limits on attending actual events but I am interested in participating in other ways.

The farmers around here have a farmer's co-op store which sell farm equipment to both farmers and non farmers alike. But since their produce disappears when you use it, a co-op may not be the answer.
Edit to add.
To clarify. Perhaps a gamer's co-op needs to be started in each state. The bigger ones can break down in two or three regional co-ops. And then a national non for profit co-op could be started to promote tabletop rpgs.

 

[Leviatham]

I think you underestimate how small RPGs are in the market. Let's start with this essay by Ryan Dancey. Regardless of whether or not I agree with all of his conclusions, he brings some relevant data to the conversation. WotC has spent years trying to find marketing that works and that is market efficient. One thing Dancey highlights, which should be obvious, is that D&D has a much tougher market to work with;....

I think a large misunderstanding from many fans is overestimating the size of the RPG market and WotC's budget to increase it.

That is a terrific post! I won't reply to it in detail mainly doe to lack of time, but I will say I agree with a lot you've said.

Let's forget for a bit about magazine advertising. Although I think it would make sense, I also agree that it is unlikely to be the best use of the money with the market the size it is. Probably advertising in tradeshows and convention programmes (Sci-Fi and fantasy shows, comic conventions... that sort of thing) would have a much better chance to raise awareness than an advert in Cosmopolitan.

The issue I see with most (if not all) marketing schemes that games companies put into place is that they're terribly inneficient. I am also talking from the point of view of the UK, btw. I don't have enough information about what marketing happens in the USA (and I am not including mentions in series like A Town Called Eureka and the like. Although they're handy, they're far from sufficient).

WotC is the one who's best poised to enhance brand awareness and they're doing very little about it. D&D has been a very strong videogames brand until relatively recently. I think the shambles that was DDO hurt the tabletop game quite a lot. Alas, when a brand loses credibility (like D&D lost with DDO) the loss spreads around and people who went from tabletop to videogame for convenience, didn't have the slightest incentive to go back to tabletop (they still probably don't in their majority).

I am not sure there are many plans to bring more D&D videogames to the shelves. I know there is a game called Neverwinter coming out next year, but I don't know if it is D&D related.

If there were another Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate (and I don't mean the relaunch) or Planescape: Torment, we'd probably see an increase in tabletop sales. At least that'd be my prediction.

Probably Paizo hopes the same will be true with the Pathfinder MMO.

Of course not many other companies can do that. Having said that, I spoke to Chris Birch recently (Modiphius) who will be bringing out a tabletop RPG based on a Facebook game. Both prodcuts will come out at the same time and will be related. I am *very* curious to find out if that'll work. Certainly hope it will. But I am also very curious to learn the buyers demogrpahics.

Companies that can't do that need to become marketing savvy. The hobby has way too many products out there and too few outlets to be able to survive in its current shape. Now, I know some people don't care what happens to the hobby, but I also feel that is a terribly short-sighted way to look at things. I for one care a lot.

Companies need to increase outlets. There are few shops out there and they keep closing. There are few distributors and they find it difficult to compete and distribute for various reasons. However there are ways of doing it and some retailers are becoming more gaming aware.

Talking with the CEO of Cubicle 7 just a couple of days ago he mentioned how Barnes & Noble has bought some 7000 of the Dr. Who card game. Perfect opportunity to include a leaflet inside that game for the Dr. Who RPG and some other C7 material!

Oh my god I am rambling... sorry about that!

Even if companies can't/don't want to take risks (my initial point that brought up the advertising bit) they need to become better at marketing and encouraging the customers to do some of the leg work for them, a.k.a. word of mouth.

The bottom line is that things need to improve if we want to see a healthy RPG industry (at least I want to, other don't care) and I think that's something everyone has the power to help with (and to some degree the responsibility, though I don't want to open that debate again... it became a bit tiresome).

Ok.. I'm stopping now!