Is Jack Bauer LG?

[delericho]

Hmm, so people in the military or in combat are evil?

The crucial difference is that enemy combatants are equipped to figth back, know and (generally) accept the risks, and so forth. It's somewhat 'clean' if you will. It should also be noted that our military forces have rules for the treatment of enemy prisoners (who are helpless before our forces), and that we draw a distinction between (deliberately) attacking combatants and non-combatants, and consider ourselves civilised for doing so.

I would wager the Bauer character knows killing is wrong, but doing it in the line of duty against enemies of the country is a different situation. If think if someone is doing something that they truly feel is for the good of something like a country, they are are good.

Really? Do we have to drag the Nazis into this?

Killing in the name of one's country is different.

No.

Firstly, 'killing' is a Neutral act. Context is everything. Killing in combat against acknowledged enemy combatants can be considered 'clean'. Killing as part of the death penalty is arguable, and political, so let's not discuss it. So-called 'mercy killing' of someone who is in persistent pain who you can't otherwise help? Again, political.

But all three of these are clearly difficult to murder.

With that said, I will submit that murder committed in the name of one's country is no different from murder committed for any other reason, and is Evil. What's more, it's Evil even if you were told to do so by your superiors, or even your Commander in Chief. "I was only following orders" is no excuse.

(I will acknowledge that there are situations where murder is necessary. But even in those circumstances it is still Evil, hence "a necessary evil".)

 

[delericho]

Thanks for trying, but there's already been some pretty major undisguised spoilers in this thread.

Yeah, but I was going into a lot more detail about current events than I'd previously seen, so...

 

[Thotas]

Yeah, the leg shooting incident was way spoiled way back. In part by me, so I know.

And the context it's being brought up in now also brings up a matter that I don't think has been mentioned yet; what is called (I think as a technical term in game theory?) "perfect knowledge" or lack there of. For example, in chess, one has perfect knowledge. You can see the whole board, all the rules and all the situation laid out before you. In poker, however, you don't know what your opponent(s) have in their hand, and clues that lead you to think you've got it figured out might be deceptive.

Jack usually doesn't have perfect knowledge. He didn't know that Chloe would make that break through, or even know for certain whether it was possible. I've seen lots of cases on paladin threads and stories I've heard from other gamers in person about DMs who set moral traps for paladins by sticking them in situations without perfect knowledge and then penalizing them as if they had it.

 

[glass]

Yeah, but I was going into a lot more detail about current events than I'd previously seen, so...

Yeah. I didn't read it, but I saw there was quite a lot of it when I QUOTEd quote post.

Thank you for that. Hopefully in the future more people will follow your fine example!


glass.

 

[Drowbane]

(haha)

In Eberron...

...If Jack Bauer was in Eberron...

...Alignment in Eberron...

...Pulp heroes and Eberron...

God!! Whats with this guy?! You'd think he designed the damn setting or something?!















Hehehe, Mr Baker, you rock!

 

[Ds Da Man]

Wow. No. The deeply committed commander in the armies of Iuz who will fight to preserve the lives of his men and tortures an enemy healer into saving one of his soldier's legs isn't a good guy simply because he's willing to risk it all for someone he's close to.

No, but the CG priest torturing an enemy combatant to save the lives of a villiage of peasants is. If you cannot see the evil already perpertrated in the show, by the other side, and JB just responding to the evil, for the sake of life, country, family, I say your vision in life must be pretty skewed. I would do the same thing right now to save the life of a child, or even another adult, if need be. Breaking some fingers, shooting some legs, to gain knowledge to help stop an evil act, makes me evil? I highly doubt it.
Let say for instance that someone has kidnapped a child, buried her/him alive, and has told police about it, but won't say where the child is buried. Your telling me that breaking/burning/shooting to gain info to save the childs life is evil?
I have to say, this thread probably ties into Monte's a little, about how political views can change how one views good/neutral/evil actions. I don't think I'll post anymore in this thread. Have fun

 

[Drowbane]

So, Gregory House, M.D.....


Chaotic Neutral or what?

House is N/G (he does what needs to be done to save lives, whether or not it falls within accepted guidelines) with Jerk tendencies.

 

[delericho]

Jack usually doesn't have perfect knowledge...

I've seen lots of cases on paladin threads and stories I've heard from other gamers in person about DMs who set moral traps for paladins by sticking them in situations without perfect knowledge and then penalizing them as if they had it.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of DMs who trap Paladins as described. Indeed, I would walk away from a table where the DM forced the "evil wizard/portal" situation on a Paladin without a _long_ lead up to that situation. It's fine as the climactic point of a tragic campaign, but it's not fair to arbitrarily force it on the PC.

The thing about Jack in that incident is that he had other options available, but he didn't even consider them. His first recourse was to the torture of the innocent. And the fact that there was another resolution proves that he was wrong to do so.

There's a line. I'm not sure when he crossed it, but by that point he is well over it, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[sword-dancer]

Problem with your answer is you don't really submit a good one of your own. Your just posting to belittle someone else's statement and not offer a good alternative. The excuse has undoubtably been used by people we hold in high regard throughout history. So using just the one category "torturers" in your response tells me your taking a shot at me personally for my posting. Try to keep it polite next time in a response.

One example is the Gestapo, Einsatzgruppen, Totenkopfstaffeln of the SS Himmler(whose words at the mass murders implies he believed(or told it so) it was a hard thing to do but legitimate it with the necessity that it must be done for the "greater good"),
The Wannsee Konferenz, a very interesting and hypocritic act, where the holocaust was replanned.

These were one of the things coming automatical to my mind, mybe because I´m German, there was no shot at you intended.

 

[sword-dancer]

Breaking some bones to gain information may be an evil act, but doesn't make a character evil. .

1st Problem, he doesn`t break the Bones of evil People, he breaks the bones of children.

2nd Problem where does this stop, torture the guuilty but what is when the toturer makes a mistake...

Main Point it goes against the dignity and the human rights of every human.