Is Jack Bauer LG?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I notice you using the word "absolve" there. The connotation serves to confirm what I've already asserted--that those who wish to label Bauer as evil are attempting to levy judgment against him for doing something that they find distasteful.

No, I used that word because people want to insist that Jack Bauer is a good guy despite his evil acts and that his intentions make it all OK.

You assert that the contention that Bauer has no choice but to torture is "not terribly strong". The alternative is to take no stringent actions and simply allow thousands to die.

That simply isn't true. He has massive resources available and, given that 24 is real time, we know it took him quite a long time to arrange the faked-up executions to torture a parent into divulging information. He had options, he just chose not to use them. He chose torture.

Again, the PHB's section on the alignment system spends more time discussing alignment as the result of beliefs and motivations than as the result of specific actions.

And it simply isn't plausible to say that "Person X did horrible evil act Y, but he cried and claims he was forced into it, therefore he has Good alignment."

I draw the line where Bauer starts to commit these ugly deeds for the sake of expediency rather than urgency. The distinction between the two is significant to appreciate; Jack does not lie, hurt, or kill because it's the easiest way to achieve his goals, rather he does so because he's out of viable options.

Again, not true. He might assert it, but since we have a real time clock and know how long he has to prepare for many of his acts and can watch him marshal his considerable resources, the "I have no choice" excuse he offers is a lie. He's a butcher who chooses violence against innocents as a first resort.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That JB is willing to risk his life, family, his sanity, everything for other people, shows he is a good person. I don't see how that can even be disputed.

Wow. No. The deeply committed commander in the armies of Iuz who will fight to preserve the lives of his men and tortures an enemy healer into saving one of his soldier's legs isn't a good guy simply because he's willing to risk it all for someone he's close to.

He did it, got the information needed to save a lot of lives, and didn't sit there rubbing his hands together, gleefully laughing while doing it.

He did it despite having the resources available to explore other viable options. It's a choice of first resort.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Wow. No. The deeply committed commander in the armies of Iuz who will fight to preserve the lives of his men and tortures an enemy healer into saving one of his soldier's legs isn't a good guy simply because he's willing to risk it all for someone he's close to.


He did it despite having the resources available to explore other viable options. It's a choice of first resort.

I gather from some of your posts that you've seen the show. I'm curious if you could give a couple of examples of other actions that might have been taken instead of torture. (Sayid and the mock execution is a good one, the withholding medical aid from Kate Warner's sister is another one).

I'm not trying to derail this conversation (which I think offers some interesting perspectives on alignment views and the variety of them), I'm just trying to understand your POV on this one.

Hmm... now that I read some of my posts and examine my motivation, I think maybe I'm trying to defend the show too much

Sorry, I'm a fan

 

[Banshee16]

And your point also ignores that this is systemic and repeated by Jack Bauer. No one is faced with no-win scenarios over and over and over again, even if they actually did exist and even if we did allow that he chose the way he did because the first time appeared to be a no-win scenario.

This is why I think the writers are doing this deliberately. I think Jack was good at first...then, a few seasons back was the first time he "had" to torture someone. He hadn't done it until that point....season 3? I don't think he did in season 1, and I didn't see season 2, and the first time I remember it was season 3.

Once he did it once, it seems he's been using it as a "standard" tactic more and more, becoming more vicious every season. It's almost like he's becoming habituated to it, and has lost his inherent moral compass which might have made torture a non-option in the beginning.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Not sure if I'm the only one having technical difficulties, but whether I'm using IE or NS lately, I can't seem to post anything longer than 2-3 sentences. The browser just thinks and thinks after I click "send", and then "the document contains no data" appears.

Banshee

 

[Thotas]

I'm pretty sure that it was first season that he threatened to kill someone with a towel in a very gruesome manner unless given info that he needed. The fact that his training even contained this kind of technique lends credence to a sketchy past. Someone earlier said Delta Force proves non-good right there.

On the other hand, I'm one of those who has noticed that Jack's detractors are always saying there's always another way, without telling us what those ways are when specific incidents are brought up. Specifics, please? I do think that in reality we sometimes find ourselves with few options, and in fiction an author can arrange it all they might want.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Good call on the towel murder threat. That was a chilling one.

On the other hand, I'm one of those who has noticed that Jack's detractors are always saying there's always another way, without telling us what those ways are when specific incidents are brought up. Specifics, please? I do think that in reality we sometimes find ourselves with few options, and in fiction an author can arrange it all they might want.

OK, let's talk about the mock execution of the kids. To pull it off and get the information from the captured terrorist (as I recall it was a terrorist -- I watched multiple seasons on DVD back to back last year when I was laid up and very ill), he had to bring in a film crew, get a computer special effects specialist in (and they can't have a zillion of them just waiting around for this opportunity), briefed them all on the plan, hook up the TV feed and, as I recall, do this all by phone internationally.

At a minimum, that's involving six other people in two countries, and as I recall, there were even more CTU people aware of the plan and working to set it up, all to get the information out of this guy.

There are a myriad of ways six highly trained intelligence operatives, again, in two countries, could have been utilized in that time to get similar information. Heck, they could have been poring over the information they had, looking for clues, they could have been out knocking on doors, questioning more people, they could have been running computer simulations, they could have mocked up one of his allies being questioned and about to roll over on him (also psychological trickery, but not quite showing him his child being killed and telling him the rest of the family's about to get the same), they could have even given him sodium pentathol (which I won't argue would get Jack canonized, but certainly isn't in the same league as torture) and probably a whole bunch more ideas.

Torture, whatever other qualities it might possess, was not the only option.

 

[Thotas]

Well, okay, I expected that would be the one you would bring up 'cause you had made specific reference to it. Frankly, that incident was a stretch in general; even with the film crew and special effects folks sitting around, I have my doubts they'd have been able to get it together as fast as they did. But that is more the credibility of the storyline at that point than the morality of if, I admit.

Of the things you've lined out, only the last two alternatives mean much here. Looking at the info, knocking on more doors ... CTU had lots of folks looking over the info, they always do. Knocking on more doors is great if you've got 'em, but there weren't any, at least not that CTU was finding in the reviews of the info. On the other hand, Jack was looking right at a guy he knew did have the info. The psychological trickery thing is the most moral of the two options Jack you give him (as you mentioned, pentathol isn't as clean and simple as it has sometimes been portrayed) and uses the same resources as the psychological torture did, spurious as those resources may be. However, it's less likely to work, and for the exact same reasons that make it more humane. And that brings us closer in again to the "how much room does Jack have to let an option not work?" -- the question of how much option he had.

 

[delericho]

And that brings us closer in again to the "how much room does Jack have to let an option not work?" -- the question of how much option he had.

Right, how abut the leg-shooting incident? (Warning: major spoilers for the current season)

Spoiler

Jack has apprehended Christopher Henderson and his wife. He knows the wife is innocent. So, he orders CH to give him the information to help him track down the nerve agent. CH refuses. Jack shoots the wife in the leg, and then threatens to cripple her for life unless CH relents. CH still refuses.

At this point, Jack drags CH in to CTU for further torture. The wife goes for medical treatment.

CTU fail to break CH, who later escapes. Jack still locates the missing nerve agent before it is released. (Chloe cracks CH's computer, and they follow a lead.)

Given the outcome, the torture was clearly not required, nor did it need to be Jack's first recourse.

 

[glass]

Right, how abut the leg-shooting incident? (Warning: major spoilers for the current season)

Thanks for trying, but there's already been some pretty major undisguised spoilers in this thread.


glass.