Is Jack Bauer LG?

Ds Da Man said:
Let say for instance that someone has kidnapped a child, buried her/him alive, and has told police about it, but won't say where the child is buried. Your telling me that breaking/burning/shooting to gain info to save the childs life is evil?
I have to say, this thread probably ties into Monte's a little, about how political views can change how one views good/neutral/evil actions. I don't think I'll post anymore in this thread. Have fun :)
Funny, there was a similar case in Germany a few years ago. The police officer in charge decided to threaten (not actually commit) the kidnapper with torture, who then gave up the information. (Unfortunately, the kid was already dead. The world isn't fair, is it?).
The court decided the police officer was acting against the law (not surprisingly). But the court didn't make any moral decisions.

My take on such situations is that killing or torture can never be good, but that doesn't always make it evil. But in D&D terms, you have certainly strayed away from good, towards neutral, and depending on the situation, even towards evil.
 

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Just a point about Mr. Bond. I don't recall the movie, but, Bond has fairly often killed helpless people. In one movie (Moonraker? One of the Moore ones) the bad guy is hanging off the edge of a building, barely holding onto Bond's tie. Bond questions him, gets the information he wants, then casually slaps the man's hand away, letting him fall to his death several stories down.

This is about as evil as it gets.
 

Drowbane said:
House is N/G (he does what needs to be done to save lives, whether or not it falls within accepted guidelines) with Jerk tendencies. :D

But he doesn't. I think the show makes it pretty clear that the cases we see he takes because they're interesting, and that he ignores opportunities to save lives--like running away from a breakout of menigitious, or ignoring requests for consults--whenever it doesn't interest him.
 

prosfilaes said:
But he doesn't. I think the show makes it pretty clear that the cases we see he takes because they're interesting, and that he ignores opportunities to save lives--like running away from a breakout of menigitious, or ignoring requests for consults--whenever it doesn't interest him.
I think he's Chaotic Neutral with Good tendancies. He does have his good moments, and no real evil moments. However, it's 100% clear he has a disrespect for law, going out of his way to thumb his nose at such notions.
 

sword-dancer said:
1st Problem, he doesn`t break the Bones of evil People, he breaks the bones of children.

2nd Problem where does this stop, torture the guuilty but what is when the toturer makes a mistake...

Main Point it goes against the dignity and the human rights of every human.

Good people do bad things sometimes. The instances that people like Whizbang have given in previous posts are the opposite however of this. Bad people occassionaly do prosperous things for themselves and their own. That, in no way, makes any of those instances viable as "good acts". I think you may have to learn to distinguish the act from the person. In all examples so far, the person defines the act, and not the act the person necessarily.

sword-dancer said:
One example is the Gestapo, Einsatzgruppen, Totenkopfstaffeln of the SS Himmler(whose words at the mass murders implies he believed(or told it so) it was a hard thing to do but legitimate it with the necessity that it must be done for the "greater good"),
The Wannsee Konferenz, a very interesting and hypocritic act, where the holocaust was replanned.

These were one of the things coming automatical to my mind, mybe because I´m German, there was no shot at you intended.

Okay, these two posts are more of a political view rather than a simple evaluation of one's alignment in a specific instance. I would suggest not bringing this into the forum at all. Your just going to start arguements over it and there's no reason for it. We're not here to bum every one out so please, again, no more posting of this nature.
 
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delericho said:
The crucial difference is that enemy combatants are equipped to figth back, know and (generally) accept the risks, and so forth. It's somewhat 'clean' if you will. It should also be noted that our military forces have rules for the treatment of enemy prisoners (who are helpless before our forces), and that we draw a distinction between (deliberately) attacking combatants and non-combatants, and consider ourselves civilised for doing so.



Really? Do we have to drag the Nazis into this?



No.

Firstly, 'killing' is a Neutral act. Context is everything. Killing in combat against acknowledged enemy combatants can be considered 'clean'. Killing as part of the death penalty is arguable, and political, so let's not discuss it. So-called 'mercy killing' of someone who is in persistent pain who you can't otherwise help? Again, political.

But all three of these are clearly difficult to murder.

With that said, I will submit that murder committed in the name of one's country is no different from murder committed for any other reason, and is Evil. What's more, it's Evil even if you were told to do so by your superiors, or even your Commander in Chief. "I was only following orders" is no excuse.

(I will acknowledge that there are situations where murder is necessary. But even in those circumstances it is still Evil, hence "a necessary evil".)

Bingo. There have been classic psychology experiments conducted wherein people did horrible things, including causing the "death" of the subject of the experiment, all because they were told to do so by someone they perceived as being an authority figure. When the responsibility for their actions was taken off their shoulders, they crossed a line that should never have been crossed.

Murder is murder, whether state authorized or not. The only difference is that if it's state authorized, the state doesn't punish the person who carries it out.

I would think torture would be on the same level....especially given that regardless of what the TV show wants to portray, it's not all "ok" once it's over....I'm pretty sure it can lead to long term psychological damage, PTSD, and things like that.

And again, given it's based on bad science.....or rather, there is no scientific evidence that it's an effective way of extracting reliable information anyways.

Banshee
 

This is about as evil as it gets.

Actually, I'd imagine that certain demonic rituals involving the sacrifice of large numbers of children via torture for the express purpose of opening a permanent portal to hell so that the entire world can be overrun by demons, this dooming the entire population of hte planet to slow, tortorous deaths is about as evil as it gets.
 

Popping in for one more observation (and I haven't caught up with every post, so I apologize if I repeat someone):

In my eyes, the key question here is how extreme you are in your view of evil. Again, I can only speak for Eberron, and in Eberron the goal is to play with shades of gray and to say that there is a lot of evil in human nature... that if anything, good is the greater rarity, making the good hero truly stand out.

If you say that evil alignments should be reserved for the truly horrific and extreme - unrepentant rapists, serial killers, and actual demons - then of course that's not Jack. However, if this is the case, I don't see how it would be remotely feasible to encounter evil people in a world with the magical sophistication of Eberron or the Forgotten Realms. If evil people are reliably that bad - if you know that an evil person is automatically on par with a baby-murderer - then you should have goverment-mandated teams of paladins and clerics rooting out all people of evil alignment for the good of society. Essentially, you'd end up with Minority Report: you may not have done anything, but since only absolutely vile beings show up as evil, your alignment alone is good enough for us to bring you down. In my mind, this would create a very alien society, and one without much excitement for adventurers, because evil has been burnt out of the world.

Hence, I broaden the range of evil, to include the slumlord who cuts corners to make a profit even though he knows it's threatening the lives of his tenants; the government agent willing to torture in the name of his country; the general who authorizes massacres to demoralize an enemy. The general may actually end the war more swiftly through his actions, and in the long run, save lives. The spy may get information vital to the survival of his nation. And the landlord... well, he's just scum, but that's business. You don't like the way he does things, earn your own gold and build your own #%$@ house.

With this in mind, detect evil becomes a tool that tells you something about someone's character, but it doesn't tell you everything. It tells you they are comfortable with some evil acts, but not the circumstances or what evil acts. That evil government agent would think the slumlord was scum... and unlike a good character, who might try to see the slumlord brought to justice (if lawful) or force him to compensate his victims outside the law (if not), the evil agent might simply kill him, or for that matter torture him to teach him a lesson. You can't arrest every person of evil alignment if a third of the world is evil - and if many evil people don't actually take actions that harm innocents. Again, take the bloodthirsty barbarian who only fights because he loves to inflict pain on others... and yet, who is fighting invading demons. The barbarian's an evil man, but his aid may be just what you need. However, if he turns on innocent villagers, you'll have to bring him down. Detect evil tells you what he's capable of - that he isn't acting out of any sense of altruism or empathy for others, that he's potentially capable of truly vicious and ruthless acts - but it doesn't tell you about his blood oath to destroy demons, the vow he took that fuels his vendetta against them.

In Eberron, this is why the Church of the Silver Flame doesn't fight "that which is sensed by detect evil" - it fights those who threaten the innocent. It fights evil in the world with the sword, and seeks to redeem evil in the mind through guidance.

So when I say I see Jack Bauer as evil, it's because I think that by *my* standards, a lot of government agents have to be evil to do their job efficiently... and that this doesn't make them monsters, it makes them people with certain views of ethics, empathy, and the sacrifices that must be made in the name of their cause. Essentially, in Eberron I advocate narrowing the definition of neutrality and expanding the spectrum of both good and evil. If you'd call someone "neutral with evil tendancies" - just make 'em evil. There is a huge difference between Hannibal Lecter and Jack Bauer, but I'm comfortable making both evil. Fuzzing this line makes it more difficult for detect evil to be the be-all end-all in villain detection and allows more mystery in the world. When you discover the Dark Lantern working with you is evil, you know to keep an eye on him... but you can't automatically assume that means he's going to betray you. He may simply be ruthlessly devoted to his nation.

With all that said, I also feel strongly that people can perform actions outside of their alignment under duress: alignment is a guideline, not a chain. Repetition and comfort is the key. As such, I agree that in Jack, we may be seeing a gradual change in alignment, as he is forced to become more comfortable with extreme methods. And in response to the question of "So in some of the torture situations, what alternative did Jack have?" - he had the choice not to take the actions that he did, actions often challenged by his compatriots. Yes, if he didn't do what he did, hundreds of people might have died. But a good-aligned person - like the people who challenged him - might still hesitate to take the ruthless action, even though it resulted in greater disaster. As I said, I believe that many governments would (or do) employ evil people for precisely this reason.

So, it all comes back to your view on evil. Mine is that evil is a part of human nature and a part of our world, not something that can be excised... because if it was reserved for truly extreme and horrible cases, a world with the ability to detect evil would take action to eliminate it. Following these principles, I would make Jack evil... a good man who has fallen into evil, but who is still bound by his loyalty to his nation and family, and by his personal integrity. An evil person serving a good cause, and who only engages in evil actions because he feels those actions are necessary. Essentially, I believe that both good and evil people can be heroes... or, for that matter, villains. Alignment shapes your methods, but does not automatically define your loyalty or your goals.
 
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Drowbane said:
God!! Whats with this guy?! You'd think he designed the damn setting or something?!
Nah, I'm just one of those annoying Eberron fanboys. In my next post, I'll tell you all about why magic robots are the k3wl3st.
 

Hellcow said:
Popping in for one more observation (and I haven't caught up with every post, so I apologize if I repeat someone):

In my eyes, the key question here is how extreme you are in your view of evil. Again, I can only speak for Eberron, and in Eberron the goal is to play with shades of gray and to say that there is a lot of evil in human nature... that if anything, good is the greater rarity, making the good hero truly stand out.

If you say that evil alignments should be reserved for the truly horrific and extreme - unrepentant rapists, serial killers, and actual demons - then of course that's not Jack. However, if this is the case, I don't see how it would be remotely feasible to encounter evil people in a world with the magical sophistication of Eberron or the Forgotten Realms. If evil people are reliably that bad - if you know that an evil person is automatically on par with a baby-murderer - then you should have goverment-mandated teams of paladins and clerics rooting out all people of evil alignment for the good of society. Essentially, you'd end up with Minority Report: you may not have done anything, but since only absolutely vile beings show up as evil, your alignment alone is good enough for us to bring you down. In my mind, this would create a very alien society, and one without much excitement for adventurers, because evil has been burnt out of the world.

Hence, I broaden the range of evil, to include the slumlord who cuts corners to make a profit even though he knows it's threatening the lives of his tenants; the government agent willing to torture in the name of his country; the general who authorizes massacres to demoralize an enemy. The general may actually end the war more swiftly through his actions, and in the long run, save lives. The spy may get information vital to the survival of his nation. And the landlord... well, he's just scum, but that's business. You don't like the way he does things, earn your own gold and build your own #%$@ house.

With this in mind, detect evil becomes a tool that tells you something about someone's character, but it doesn't tell you everything. It tells you they are comfortable with some evil acts, but not the circumstances or what evil acts. That evil government agent would think the slumlord was scum... and unlike a good character, who might try to see the slumlord brought to justice (if lawful) or force him to compensate his victims outside the law (if not), the evil agent might simply kill him, or for that matter torture him to teach him a lesson. You can't arrest every person of evil alignment if a third of the world is evil - and if many evil people don't actually take actions that harm innocents. Again, take the bloodthirsty barbarian who only fights because he loves to inflict pain on others... and yet, who is fighting invading demons. The barbarian's an evil man, but his aid may be just what you need. However, if he turns on innocent villagers, you'll have to bring him down. Detect evil tells you what he's capable of - that he isn't acting out of any sense of altruism or empathy for others, that he's potentially capable of truly vicious and ruthless acts - but it doesn't tell you about his blood oath to destroy demons, the vow he took that fuels his vendetta against them.

In Eberron, this is why the Church of the Silver Flame doesn't fight "that which is sensed by detect evil" - it fights those who threaten the innocent. It fights evil in the world with the sword, and seeks to redeem evil in the mind through guidance.

So when I say I see Jack Bauer as evil, it's because I think that by *my* standards, a lot of government agents have to be evil to do their job efficiently... and that this doesn't make them monsters, it makes them people with certain views of ethics, empathy, and the sacrifices that must be made in the name of their cause. Essentially, in Eberron I advocate narrowing the definition of neutrality and expanding the spectrum of both good and evil. If you'd call someone "neutral with evil tendancies" - just make 'em evil. There is a huge difference between Hannibal Lecter and Jack Bauer, but I'm comfortable making both evil. Fuzzing this line makes it more difficult for detect evil to be the be-all end-all in villain detection and allows more mystery in the world. When you discover the Dark Lantern working with you is evil, you know to keep an eye on him... but you can't automatically assume that means he's going to betray you. He may simply be ruthlessly devoted to his nation.

With all that said, I also feel strongly that people can perform actions outside of their alignment under duress: alignment is a guideline, not a chain. Repetition and comfort is the key. As such, I agree that in Jack, we may be seeing a gradual change in alignment, as he is forced to become more comfortable with extreme methods. And in response to the question of "So in some of the torture situations, what alternative did Jack have?" - he had the choice not to take the actions that he did, actions often challenged by his compatriots. Yes, if he didn't do what he did, hundreds of people might have died. But a good-aligned person - like the people who challenged him - might still hesitate to take the ruthless action, even though it resulted in greater disaster. As I said, I believe that many governments would (or do) employ evil people for precisely this reason.

So, it all comes back to your view on evil. Mine is that evil is a part of human nature and a part of our world, not something that can be excised... because if it was reserved for truly extreme and horrible cases, a world with the ability to detect evil would take action to eliminate it. Following these principles, I would make Jack evil... a good man who has fallen into evil, but who is still bound by his loyalty to his nation and family, and by his personal integrity. An evil person serving a good cause, and who only engages in evil actions because he feels those actions are necessary. Essentially, I believe that both good and evil people can be heroes... or, for that matter, villains. Alignment shapes your methods, but does not automatically define your loyalty or your goals.

I won't say very succinctly put, because there's a fair amount of detail there...but I think you've made your point pretty clearly. I actually tend to agree with what you're saying with respect to Jack.

Banshee
 

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