Is kicking a helpless offender unconscious brutal?

[Dogbrain]

Beating a helpless opponent is a hallmark, an absolute and irrefutible sign that one is a vicious, brutal, and heartless bully. Definitely an evil act, definitely brutal. Defending such acts is likewise nearly as brutal and evil.

 

[sellars]

What would the bard prefer, that you killed him?

According to the bard, we could have tied him up without kicking him unconscious.

My argument was that that was indeed a possibility, but considered the offender might have been a Fire Knives assassin, not too wise.

 

[Vaxalon]

OK, one more thing about my character being LE. It is more of a LN kind of LE.

If your character is LN you should have said so.

And yeah, I question how the two of you ever generated any trust in the first place.

 

[sellars]

If your character is LN you should have said so.

And yeah, I question how the two of you ever generated any trust in the first place.

Especially in these kinds of moral dillemma it can be useful to further explain an alignment. Don't simply focus on the two letter alignment, but on the description I gave of the morality of the character. IMHO that describes the characters morality as I (try to) play in during the sessions.

In the same post it is explained how they got together: at a time where alignments were not so big an issue, because they weren't really put to the test.

 

[DragonLancer]

According to the bard, we could have tied him up without kicking him unconscious.

My argument was that that was indeed a possibility, but considered the offender might have been a Fire Knives assassin, not too wise.

I agree with you. In that situation you cannot risk that the guy isn't an assassin sent after you.

 

[Pielorinho]

One thing I don't get from your story: in what sense was this guy "helpless"?

If I were living in the D&D world, I'd have no problems with this: I would know that there's no binding capable of holding a competent character, who may have stilled, silent spells available, or who may be Houdini's protege. However, I would also know that nobody in the world can escape from being unconscious. If I have a villain in my clutches, and the villain is likely to hurt other people if he escapes, I have a duty to ensure he doesn't escape; sometimes, knocking him unconscious is the most humane means to accomplish this duty.

Ironically, another means of subduing villains without killing them--poison use--is also considered less humane by many players and DMs than the use of lethal force.

That said, perhaps you could've describe the unarmed attacks in less brutal-sounding terms. I suspect the hotbutton issue you hit for the bard's player was modern-day police brutality, which often (and dramatically) takes the form of kicking helpless suspects; the bard's player did NOT want to identify with those images.

Daniel

 

[Dinkeldog]

There aren't many good rules in D&D for more peaceful restraint. Without handcuffs that can be applied after pinning an opponent in a grapple, you're just waiting for them to make an escape artist check against your rope use (and just how good are your PCs at rope use?) check, and they're gone.

 

[OakwoodDM]

That said, perhaps you could've describe the unarmed attacks in less brutal-sounding terms.

Exactly. If you wanted to subdue a helpless opponent, a swift strike on the back of the head with a sap or sword hilt would do it. I think the Bard player's problem (and the problem I'd have with these actions) is that your method was kicking him repeatedly in the head, which is brutal and unnecessary.

 

[Darklone]

Same question as Pielorinho: Why was that guy helpless? It sounds like he attacked you. Did someone cast Hold Person on him? Even Tashas Laughter does not cause helplessness.

By D&D terms, anyone who attacks you is usually dead meat... so yeah, I'm surprised as well to hear some groups still try to subdue opponents

 

[sellars]

Exactly. If you wanted to subdue a helpless opponent, a swift strike on the back of the head with a sap or sword hilt would do it. I think the Bard player's problem (and the problem I'd have with these actions) is that your method was kicking him repeatedly in the head, which is brutal and unnecessary.

Here I must protest! It is NOT less brutal to whack somebody unconscious with a weapon than it is to do it with your hands or feet.


We clearly stated our intentions to the bard and to the DM, who ruled that, in order to get the guy unconscious, we should use unarmed attacks.