More excuses. Your character is of evil alignment. Why whine about having been brutal? Why whine about having been merciless? Don't think up rationalizations and excuses. It DOESN'T MATTER if it was "right" or "justifiable" to the weak and the spineless. After all "evil" is just a label invented by the weak in order to keep the strong from doing what they should.
Is kicking a helpless offender unconscious brutal?
- Thread starter sellars
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
sellars said:
Maybe it was just how you described it in the first post, or how the DM decided to run the thing...
If your DM had decided to rule0 that in this occasion "you just hit the back of his head once with a flick of your open hand and he falls unconscious" that would have sounded like a non-brutal way to subdue someone before bringing him to the police, for example.
But the scene of two person, one grappling the guy and keeping him pinned, the other repeatedly whacking his head with punches and kicks or against the floor... well that is nothing but brutal.
Clearly if the DM plays by the rule, the rule don't help if the guy had 100hp, but that's a problem with the rules :\
sellars
Explorer
diaglo said:hold up...
you can describe kicking a guy unconscious.. but you can't figure out from looking at him if he has a Dex of 22?
There is a difference between describing the actions your PC is making, and appraising the exact Dex score of your opponent.
Sure, we noticed the guy was agile, make that really agile. But that is different from immediately knowing his Dex score, right?
sellars
Explorer
Dogbrain said:
sarcasm noted, thanks.
What's your point? because I am playing a LE character, I am excluded from discussions on morality?
In my view it is an interesting discussion, fuelled by the idea that for some people it seems to be better to slash someone to pieces with a longsword than to knock him unconscious.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Okay, everyone here who thinks it's (in D&D terms) evil to stab an assassin to death in the middle of a combat, raise your hands.
Everyone here who thinks it's (in D&D terms) evil to stab an assassin to death in the middle of a combat when the assassin is under the effects of a Hold Person, which he might escape from any moment, raise your hands.
Everyone here who thinks it's (in D&D terms) evil to stab an assassin to death in the middle of a combat when the assassin is being pinned by an ally, a pin from which he might escape at any moment, raise your hands.
Now, everyone who would rather be stabbed to death than beaten unconscious, raise your hands.
As I said, Sellars, I don't see this as an act that a lawful good character in a D&D world would shy away from. Your choices were threefold: kill the assassin, let the assassin go, or subdue the assassin. Your DM told you to use unarmed attacks if you wanted to choose the last of these three acts. The only "brutal" thing you did was describe attacking with your boots rather than with your fists. I think that's not especially brutal, but it does push some specific buttons people have.
For folks describing this act as evil, what should he have done instead?
Daniel
Everyone here who thinks it's (in D&D terms) evil to stab an assassin to death in the middle of a combat when the assassin is under the effects of a Hold Person, which he might escape from any moment, raise your hands.
Everyone here who thinks it's (in D&D terms) evil to stab an assassin to death in the middle of a combat when the assassin is being pinned by an ally, a pin from which he might escape at any moment, raise your hands.
Now, everyone who would rather be stabbed to death than beaten unconscious, raise your hands.
As I said, Sellars, I don't see this as an act that a lawful good character in a D&D world would shy away from. Your choices were threefold: kill the assassin, let the assassin go, or subdue the assassin. Your DM told you to use unarmed attacks if you wanted to choose the last of these three acts. The only "brutal" thing you did was describe attacking with your boots rather than with your fists. I think that's not especially brutal, but it does push some specific buttons people have.
For folks describing this act as evil, what should he have done instead?
Daniel
Kahuna Burger
First Post
You're presenting the event with some implied context, but then ignoring that in the bard/player's actions.
You are playing an evil character. *misses rolls eyes smiley* For some unknown reason, you were traveling and cooperating so far with a good character, of the free spirit variety. Pretty much inevitably, things came to a head and the good character has decided to leave your company. (You didn't mention any other allignments, but it seems safe to say that the rest of the party is more to your end than the bard's.)
Trying to rationalize if this particular incident deserved to be the breaking point is meaningless. Planning to use your kewl evil allignment to kill a PC out of pettyness is the sort of masturbatory annoyance that keeps me away from evil PCs. In character, the bard is no longer keeping company with you and you might need a new face man. Out of character, you need to determine if the Bard player wants to make a new character who fits in better or if (s)he is simply not going to enjoy a *yawn* evil/"realistic"/gritty campaign.
In other words, your party composition isn't going to work out and one player gave up metagaming that it would. Thank him/her and deal.
Kahuna Burger
You are playing an evil character. *misses rolls eyes smiley* For some unknown reason, you were traveling and cooperating so far with a good character, of the free spirit variety. Pretty much inevitably, things came to a head and the good character has decided to leave your company. (You didn't mention any other allignments, but it seems safe to say that the rest of the party is more to your end than the bard's.)
Trying to rationalize if this particular incident deserved to be the breaking point is meaningless. Planning to use your kewl evil allignment to kill a PC out of pettyness is the sort of masturbatory annoyance that keeps me away from evil PCs. In character, the bard is no longer keeping company with you and you might need a new face man. Out of character, you need to determine if the Bard player wants to make a new character who fits in better or if (s)he is simply not going to enjoy a *yawn* evil/"realistic"/gritty campaign.
In other words, your party composition isn't going to work out and one player gave up metagaming that it would. Thank him/her and deal.
Kahuna Burger
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Moderator's Notes:
Kahuna, if you're having trouble making your point without the rolls-eyes smiley, perhaps you need to rethink your point? You can disagree with Sellars without being disrespectful.
If we're going to debate this, we all need to avoid insulting one another.
Daniel
[edited to make it clear I'm speaking as a moderator]
Kahuna, if you're having trouble making your point without the rolls-eyes smiley, perhaps you need to rethink your point? You can disagree with Sellars without being disrespectful.
If we're going to debate this, we all need to avoid insulting one another.
Daniel
[edited to make it clear I'm speaking as a moderator]
Last edited:
sellars said:
Yeah, well, a high-level assassin doesn't go down to a couple kicks to the head in D&D. Even a high level mage doesn't. Too many hit points. Either the assassin wasn't as threatening as you thought, or you got the wrong guy. Anything that falls to a couple shots from a boot isnt "the most lethal thing he came across".
The ting that gets me is this - you actually believed he might be that dangerous, and you only used your boot as a weapon? Your belief in the potential danger is not matched by your actions.
As for being brutal - yes, it was brutal. If you don't believe me, have someone hold you down, and let another kick you in the head until you fall unconscious.
The question isn't about right. The question is whether or not each character was justified in how he viewed the event. The answer is probably yes. You each role-played your intended positions well.
I will not enter into the discussion on how plotting to kill another PC is poor form...
Kahuna Burger
First Post
[edit: check your email, Kahuna]
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry
Autoexreginated
Umbran said:
On the other hand, it sounds like the DM was only allowing him to use the D&D-accepted nonlethal damage rules to knock the guy out. Maybe there was miscommunication, but it sounds like they pin the guy, stated the intention to knock the guy unconscious, and the DM said, "yeah, but you have to use uanrmed attacks to do it." At which point the two PC's decided to go about it. Had the DM allowed say a nonlethal Coup de Grace on this pinned and effectively helpless opponent, it might have "looked" cleaner.
From a DM's perspective, it looks like the guy went down in two rounds for one of two valid reasons:
--They pinched a low-level would-be assassin, instead of the real deal (a guy who throws poisonous vermin at me counts as an attempted assassin, I'm sorry to say).
--They pinched the Big Guy, and the DM saw his NPC getting hammered after two rounds, couldn't get free from the other PC's death-grip, saw the writing on the wall, and said, "OK, he goes unconscious", not willing to play out this nasty little scene any further.
Without the DM, I can't say with certainty. Occam's Razor suggests the first one, but the second scenario is not improbable.
Similar Threads
