D&D 5E Is long-term support of the game important?

[Iosue]

I disagree with a substantial amount of this. Sure, initiative was different, but the action economy and movement weren't as different or at least didn't feel as different as you say. Both were very easy to learn and the rules were presented in a much more explicit and clear manner. I'd also say that conversion of adventures was actually fairly easy. It was more challenging than 1e to 2e but then that was almost not a conversion at all. Converting 1e to 3e wasn't really a hell of a lot more difficult. Certainly not in my experience.

The bolded section is my very point. Everything else is subjective level of tolerance. You were satisfied with the level of conversion required to go from AD&D to 3e. That's fine. I'm saying that going forward, personally, I want "almost not a conversion at all".

 

[zoroaster100]

What's most important to me in terms of ongoing support is that Wizards of the Coast provide high quality adventures and adventure paths for the game. In particular, I want good adventure paths with deep development of a locale, including one or more base towns or citys for the adventurers to use at the outset of the adventure path and beyond, and a logical coherent overarching plot that connects the adventures over many levels.

With respect to splat books with new subclasses, feats, spells and equipment, I would much rather have less stuff, thoroughly playtested, than more stuff that is messes up game balance between classes or between player characters and mosters.

Similarily, I can always enjoy more monsters and NPCs, but would rather have a few well playtested ones than a bunch of new monsters that change the class balance or player vs monster balance.

 

[Mistwell]

You can always make something up on the fly, work around it, or look it up online.

To their credit, Paizo puts all its core rulesbooks online for free. If something is referenced in an AP, its available to look at for no money, no subscription, nothing. All you need is a computer, internet access, and either a screen or a printer.

Yeah, it's a lot harder to get angry at someone for requiring something when they make it available free online.

One key thing that can be said for Paizo, though, is that they do at least make all the relevant rules material freely available online. Which is obviously a fairly significant advantage.

It's weird. Every time I mention this subject, someone feels the need to remind everyone it's available for free online. In fact, even if I say in a message it's available online, I've had people quote me, cut that part, and then repeat that it's available online! You didn't just do that...but you did state it just a few messages after it had already been said three times in the same thread.

We all get it - it's available for free online. If you have no issues at all with finding twelve outside sources online and printing it, or using an electronic device at your game table, cool. But for those who do have an issue with this inter-constructiveness in the APs, it remains a growing problem and Paizo appears to consider it a feature and not a bug, based on that post from Sean K. Reynolds talking about how they need to support all the cool new stuff (his words), and reprinting it in the adventure would just take up valuable space.

For me, I don't want to go hunt down TWELVE other sources of material, online or not, free or not. That's, to me, way too much stuff outside the adventure that should be right there in the friggen adventure I paid for. When I buy a hardcopy adventure intended for use at the game table, I expect it to contain everything I need to play that adventure aside from the core rules. If I have to go hunt it down online for free, I am more likely to buy from the company that supplies all that with the adventure itself.

I don't recall a single person saying "All that errata WOTC keeps putting out for 4e is awesome, because it's available for free online!" I remember a metric crapload of people complaining it was too much to keep up with, and absurd to think people could insert it in their hardcopy books, and the effect was to force everyone to the online version of the rules making their hardcopy books far less usable. I don't see this issue being that far off from the WOTC errata issue. Forcing people online to make a hardcopy book they bought usable is an issue for a fair number of people.

 

[N'raac]

We all get it - it's available for free online. If you have no issues at all with finding twelve outside sources online and printing it, or using an electronic device at your game table, cool.

How about for those that have no more issues with obtaining it online than they have with hauling all those physical books around? The online option means you don't have to have that book to use the content. You are not forced to pay for materials you don't have, or abandon the AP, or rewrite it to remove those elements.

But for those who do have an issue with this inter-constructiveness in the APs, it remains a growing problem and Paizo appears to consider it a feature and not a bug, based on that post from Sean K. Reynolds talking about how they need to support all the cool new stuff (his words), and reprinting it in the adventure would just take up valuable space.

For me, I don't want to go hunt down TWELVE other sources of material, online or not, free or not. That's, to me, way too much stuff outside the adventure that should be right there in the friggen adventure I paid for.

That's certainly your prerogative. For someone who buys all that material, they likely DO want to see it in the adventures and other products they buy. And I can certainly see why they would not want to pay for a reprint of material they already own, just so we can say "you only have to carry the core rules around".

I believe Mythic and the current AP go hand in hand, so one might say that the Wrath of the Righteous was written specifically to support the Mythic Adventures rules (although I believe it was more the reverse, that MA was written so it could be used with WotR). Their4 own 2 para blurb states that "The Wrath of the Righteous adventure path brings something more to your table—an entire campaign, designed from the ground up, to showcase Mythic Adventures. This campaign will take characters to greater heights of power, and greater depths of danger, than any Pathfinder Adventure Path to date!" If you didn't want to be forced to reference MA, why buy that AP?

Isn't the Bestiary a core book, like the MM Vol 1 was in 3e? I think even the old D&D modules used monsters from later monster books as well, which would bring in Bestiary 2 and 3.

When I buy a hardcopy adventure intended for use at the game table, I expect it to contain everything I need to play that adventure aside from the core rules. If I have to go hunt it down online for free, I am more likely to buy from the company that supplies all that with the adventure itself.

Who does that? Certainly, they can restrict their adventures to nothing but the core rules and supplementary material they publish in their adventure. Is there a stronger market for that? What company is tapping in to it. I'd rather refer to the monster in its own book, and the spell it cast in a second book, and not have to keep flipping pages in that module, myself.

I do think the books should clearly indicate what else is required, and what else is referenced but is not essential. Then the buyer can decide. If your feelings are widely shared, presumably you'll buy something else (although I suspect the last AP you bought also referred to outside sources, the Bestiary at a minimum and likely more, and that didn't dissuade you from picking this one up).

I don't recall a single person saying "All that errata WOTC keeps putting out for 4e is awesome, because it's available for free online!" I remember a metric crapload of people complaining it was too much to keep up with, and absurd to think people could insert it in their hardcopy books, and the effect was to force everyone to the online version of the rules making their hardcopy books far less usable. I don't see this issue being that far off from the WOTC errata issue. Forcing people online to make a hardcopy book they bought usable is an issue for a fair number of people.

I see errata as a very different issue. I don't use the errata with the rules - it is the rules.

 

[ShadoWWW]

Free online stuff is really important for those who play online via Fantasy Grounds, Roll20 etc.

It would be cool if new adventures could be with stat blocks for 2E, 3E, 4E and Next, or if old BECMI, AD&D, and 3E adventures were supplemented with Next stat blocks! There are plenty of old great adventures which could be appreciated by new players of Next. And if new adventures would be played by players of old editions - it would be brilliant.

Anyway, it would be cool if Pathfinder Path had supplement with stat blocks for Next!

 

[am181d]

It's weird. Every time I mention this subject, someone feels the need to remind everyone it's available for free online...

For me, I don't want to go hunt down TWELVE other sources of material, online or not, free or not. That's, to me, way too much stuff outside the adventure that should be right there in the friggen adventure I paid for.

Two quick points:

1) Paizo isn't doing that out of the kindness of their hearts. They have no choice, because they built PF off the OGL. If they weren't posting their stuff online, third parties would be (and were and continue to do so)

2) It's not "TWELVE" sources -- it's one. And it's all fully searchable via Google.

 

[Umbran]

That's certainly your prerogative. For someone who buys all that material, they likely DO want to see it in the adventures and other products they buy. And I can certainly see why they would not want to pay for a reprint of material they already own, just so we can say "you only have to carry the core rules around".

Well, here's a point. It isn't just about carrying them around. It is about prep time and work.

If you've (generic you, not N'raac, personally) bought those 12 supplements, you've probably read through them, and digested a goodly chunk of them already, just for fun. For you, checking the rules online is a referencing action, looking up a reminder.

To someone who hasn't bought the supplements, but buys the AP, looking them up online is a *learning* operation, not a reminder.

Admittedly, how many items in which the thing is stored is not the relevant bit for an online source. But how much extra rules-stuff you have to absorb before using the adventure is still relevant.

I think the "I don't use errata with the rules, it is the rules" is a tad glib. For those working with physical rulebooks, they are separate documents. That they "are the rules" doesn't mean that you can operate without having to refer to the documents separately.

 

[Mistwell]

How about for those that have no more issues with obtaining it online than they have with hauling all those physical books around?

My point is, I want everything I need, other than the core rules, in the physical hardcopy adventure I bought. But that's not done (by almost anyone). So, yeah I'd have the same issue with that.

The online option means you don't have to have that book to use the content. You are not forced to pay for materials you don't have, or abandon the AP, or rewrite it to remove those elements.

I am trying, REALLY HARD, to figure out what you thought I didn't understand that point. You know, given I had said it, and four others hand said it before you, and then I highlighted how every time the issue comes up someone feels the need to say it even after it's already been said, and re-quoted all those people to make it double clear, and then you replied to it so you knew I had just done that.

I GET IT. YOU GET IT. WE ALLLLLLLLLLLL GET IT. FREE ONLINE MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT, YOU'RE NOT FORCED TO PURCHASE IT TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS IT. I KNOW WHAT FREE ONLINE MEANS. YOU KNOW WHAT FREE ONLINE MEANS. EVERY SINGLE PERSON READING THIS THREAD KNOWS WHAT FREE ONLINE MEANS. MY THREE YEAR OLD CHILD KNOWS WHAT FREE ONLINE MEANS (Literally - she fully understands when we say an app is free, and when it's a pay app). IT'S FREE ONLINE - GOTCHA.

So to get all pissy about it, but after all the effort previously put in to highlight this issue so much, just replying with it again just feels like you're not reading what others are saying.

That's certainly your prerogative. For someone who buys all that material, they likely DO want to see it in the adventures and other products they buy. And I can certainly see why they would not want to pay for a reprint of material they already own, just so we can say "you only have to carry the core rules around".

I don't know many people who would object to it being reprinted in the AP when it comes up. As I said, even if you own it, it's easier to referenced it all in one place in the thing you just bought that is referencing it. We have decades of experience in usability with adventures, and "everything right there" is often a popular thing. It might not be for everyone, but I think it's safe to say it's for an awful lot of people.

If you didn't want to be forced to reference MA, why buy that AP?

Isn't it mostly sold on a subscription basis, sight unseen?

Isn't the Bestiary a core book, like the MM Vol 1 was in 3e? I think even the old D&D modules used monsters from later monster books as well, which would bring in Bestiary 2 and 3.

Yes, the old D&D modules DID reference later books. Which is why I mentioned it earlier, and why we're on this topic in the first place.

Who does that?

Nobody. And the award for "not following the thread" goes to....

I see errata as a very different issue. I don't use the errata with the rules - it is the rules.

But that's not why I raised that issue, or the comparison I made.

 

[Mistwell]

2) It's not "TWELVE" sources -- it's one. And it's all fully searchable via Google.

It's 12. It's the same 12 as if it were hardcopies. If I ask you to name your source, you don't say "Google". "Google" is not a source, unless it's an article that Google wrote. If you're asked on a paper to cite your sources, do not every just answer "Google"

On a related issue, if Paizo put up a single link to a page that JUST had all the stuff in a particular episode of a specific Adventure Path, that would be better. It still doesn't address my issue that everything you need other than the core rules should be right there in the hardcopy book you bought, it still doesn't deal with the issue of printing out all that crap and putting it in place in the hardcopy you bought, but it would be better than the mish-mash that currently exists for the online referencing.

 

[DaveMage]

So, isn't it more important to support the game in long-term than to constantly correct presumable errors of the game in new editions and, in fact, to constantly split the fun base? Isn't it already the main drawback of Next that players suppose the end of the editon in 5 years already, and thus stick with their current game, which would be supported longer? Isn't it the main drawback of the new D&D generally?

What do you think?

I think that with every edition switch you will gain and lose players. If your new edition causes you to lose more than you gain, you're in trouble, and every edition change has that risk. If you have a hit, better to stay with it than risk losing too many players (especially since this hobby seems to be serving an aging demographic). Only if the market for your edition is dying and you need to substantially reinvigorate the game should a new edition come out, IMO.