Is Multiclassing Balanced?

[Drowbane]

So a Clr4/PalX is terrible then, is it? You get quite a few slots for bonafide healing (which paladin spellcasting never really provides) you get a step up on the undead turning than other paladins, you lose out only on +1 BAB, you get self-buff spells like Eagle's Splendor and Bull's Strenth, you get ally-boosting stuff like Lesser Restoration and Shield Other, you get a +4 to Will Saves (which, as a melee type, is the first kind of save spellcaster will throw at you until they realize your paladinhood), you get two domain powers, and you get a limited ability to cast cleric scrolls you wouldn't otherwise.

Likewise, a Cleric X / Paladin 4 has scooped up a handful of useful abilities too. However I'm a firm believer that a non-multiclassed Cleric can out do the Paladin in any aspect of the game... short of shouting "Celestial Pony!! I choose you!".

 

[airwalkrr]

Not all multiclass combinations are created equal. You should not be able to make a viable Brb1/Brd1/Clr1/Dru1/Ftr1/Mnk1/Pal1/Rgr1/Rog1/Sor1/Wiz1.

Someone missed Dragon magazine's Ecology of the Adventurer article.

Is it such a bad thing that a Clr10/Wiz10 eats it? Ask yourself what the character has done in his lifetime to get to the middle ranges of two classes. Two entirely different schools, two different kinds of training, two different flavors of magic. Why should he be as effective as someone who has focued his entire life on a single pursuit?

Back to serious mode. Here is a big problem in what the two camps here are saying. Those who argue spellcaster multiclassing is weak ARE NOT clamoring for Clr10/Wiz10s that cast wizard spells as well as a Wiz20 or cleric spells as well as a Clr20. The ISSUE here is that the presumption that a Clr10/Wiz10 is a 20th level assumes that a Clr10 is half a Clr20 and a Wiz10 is half a Wiz20. But this presumption is completely inaccurate. A Clr10 is NOT half a Clr20 at all. He is more like a quarter Clr20. Compared to a Clr 20, a Clr10's turn undead is worthless, not worth less. If a Wiz10 were half effective as a Wiz20, we would expect his spells to work half as often, but such is not the case when a balor (CR 20) sits before the party. The Wiz10 has a mere 15% chance of even affecting the balor with his cone of cold or dismissal spell, while the Wiz20 has a 65% chance. Assuming the same save DC, the Wiz20 deals an average of 20 pts of damage while the Wiz10 deals only about 12 pts, which is fine, until we factor in SR which averages damage to 13 pts for the Wiz20 and less than 2 for the Wiz10. I'm not even going to go into the +10 relative bonus a balor gets for overcoming the Wiz10's dismissal over the Wiz20s. The presumption that a Clr10/Wiz10 is a 20th-level character is simply inaccurate. That is where the disagreement lies and I think a failure for the "multiclassing is balanced" camp to understand this is why we are arguing apples and oranges.

 

[airwalkrr]

With all due respect, this is part of the problem. The 3e multiclassing system, while it doesn't allow a 2e multiclassed character to translate exactly, is very easy to explain and is wonderful in its simplicity. There's a lot of virtue there.

This is the whole object of my "design a better multiclass system" thread over in House Rules, and part of the reason why I started this thread (mine for ideas).

 

[Plane Sailing]

MAB is the easiest way to go, to make no PrC based Multi-classing work, and only if in addition to determining Caster level, it also determined what level spells you could cast. Increasing Caster Level w/o allowing higher level spells is like increasing BAB w/o iterative attacks, in fact it is worse than that.

Now this is the most interesting idea that I've seen in a long time.

You don't even have to go to using a MAB, just give classes an effective caster level e.g.:

= level for full casters (wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid)
= 3/4 level for 6 spell level casters (bard)
= 1/2 level for 4 spell level casters (ranger, paladin, assassin)
= 1/4 level for noncasters (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk)

and THEN (this is the key bit), grant spells known according to *caster level* rather than class level.

Problems: a cleric 10/wiz10 would whoop ass.
Potential Solution: thus in a D&D world with separate arcane and divine spell lists, give them an arcane caster level and a divine caster level which don't stack. Paladins would give 1/2 level towards divine caster level but only 1/4 level towards arcane caster level; vice versa for Assassins. Perhaps not such an issue in an Arcana Evolved sort of world with only one spell list and type of magic?

BUT - Problem: multiclassers outshine single classes

Solution: OK, perhaps every multiclass has a primary casting focus (divine/arcane) and then you add +1/2 other levels as 'nonassociated' caster levels regardless of your class.

Thus a ftr10/wiz10 would be caster level 15 and have access to 8th level spells, a ftr3/wiz3 would be caster level 4.5 (=4?), a ftr2/Wiz4 would be caster level 5 with access to 3rd level spells. A Ftr4/Wiz2 would be caster level 4 with access to 2nd level spells. A Cleric 8/Wiz 8 would be caster level 12 and have access to 6th level wizard and cleric spells. A Ftr10/Sor10 would be caster level 15 and only have access to 7th level spells, but would get a heck of a lot of them. A Ftr9/Wiz1 would be caster level 5, so his magic missiles are better than a 1st level wizards, but not by much.

Y'know, I quite like this final idea. In fact I quite like this idea a lot. I think I'll discuss it with my gaming group and see if they would like to try it out in my Eberron campaign.

 

[airwalkrr]

So why aren't people complaining that the skill jockeys get hosed?

A few reasons. Spider climb, for example, negates the need for a good Climb skill. As Fly usually negates the need for a good jump skill. Additionally, as the player of a rogue/wizard, I can speak volumes about the ability to sneak attack with touch spells like shocking grasp, especially when you get to the point where you can quicken. A Rog5 who takes one level of wizard, sorcerer, or warmage with the practiced spellcaster feat gains a 5d6 electricity touch attack usable several times per day to open the combat with a virtually guaranteed hit for 8d6 damage, much more than a Rog6 could hope to deal. Plus, add in the ability do hit for 1d3+3d6 with a CANTRIP as a ranged touch attack several times per day and you've got a winning build for damage-dealer rogue.

Now bard doesn't synergize with many other classes. It is already basically a hybrid itself, but the class is balanced and a classic part of D&D. I don't want to have to go through the headache of three editions and 20 years worth of changes to reach a class that is as nicely balanced as the bard to perfect my cleric/fighter/rogue concept as a single clas.

 

[airwalkrr]

Problems: a cleric 10/wiz10 would whoop ass.
Potential Solution: thus in a D&D world with separate arcane and divine spell lists, give them an arcane caster level and a divine caster level which don't stack. Paladins would give 1/2 level towards divine caster level but only 1/4 level towards arcane caster level; vice versa for Assassins. Perhaps not such an issue in an Arcana Evolved sort of world with only one spell list and type of magic?

There is also one other major problem you are missing. A Sor10/Wiz10 casts as both a Sor20 and a Wiz20. The cost? Two wizard bonus feats and 10 levels of familiar abilities. If this problem could be reconciled (as the Clr10/Drd10 conundrum), then it might have merit. I still have problems with the idea that a Ftr16 can pick up a wizard level and laugh at the 1st level wizard for having such a puny magic missile spell though.

 

[Plane Sailing]

There is also one other major problem you are missing. A Sor10/Wiz10 casts as both a Sor20 and a Wiz20. The cost? Two wizard bonus feats and 10 levels of familiar abilities. If this problem could be reconciled (as the Clr10/Drd10 conundrum), then it might have merit. I still have problems with the idea that a Ftr16 can pick up a wizard level and laugh at the 1st level wizard for having such a puny magic missile spell though.

I don't think I'm missing it, that is effectively stated as my second Problem, leading to my second solution.

This would mean that a Sor10/Wiz10 would be caster level 15 - more versatile, but with less power than a single Sor20 or Wiz20.

(I'll edit my post above slightly to clarify my final position on this, hopefully to head off misunderstandings)

 

[FireLance]

There is also one other major problem you are missing. A Sor10/Wiz10 casts as both a Sor20 and a Wiz20. The cost? Two wizard bonus feats and 10 levels of familiar abilities. If this problem could be reconciled (as the Clr10/Drd10 conundrum), then it might have merit. I still have problems with the idea that a Ftr16 can pick up a wizard level and laugh at the 1st level wizard for having such a puny magic missile spell though.

I've always been in favor of a MR system and I think that assigning spell slots by MR would work fine (EDIT: by the way, this isn't a new idea. I believe Gez developed a unified caster level and spells per day table some time ago). What class levels should provide is knowledge of higher-level spells, and possibly other benefits, e.g. access to domain slots for a cleric and bonus spell slots for a sorcerer.

If we use the wizard spells per day progression table as a base, then a cleric 10/wizard 10 would have a caster level of 20, and would have 4 spell slots at every level from 0 to 9 (before bonus spells for high ability scores) and five domain slots for 1st to 5th level spells. However, he only has access to 5th-level cleric spells and 5th-level wizard spells. Still, he could use his higher-level spell slots to quicken, heighten, maximize or empower his lower-level spells. He won't be able to cast mass heal, but he can cast empowered mass cure light wounds. He won't be able to cast wail of the banshee, but he can cast heightened phantasmal killer.

A sorcerer 10/wizard 10 would have two lists of arcane spells known up to 5th level - one list he can cast spontaneously and apply metamagic on the fly, and another which he needs to prepare in spell slots. He should also get some bonus spell slots from his sorcerer levels, possibly two bonus spell slots at each spell level from 0 to 5th.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've always been in favor of a MR system and I think that assigning spell slots by MR would work fine (EDIT: by the way, this isn't a new idea. I believe Gez developed a unified caster level and spells per day table some time ago). What class levels should provide is knowledge of higher-level spells, and possibly other benefits, e.g. access to domain slots for a cleric and bonus spell slots for a sorcerer.

If we use the wizard spells per day progression table as a base, then a cleric 10/wizard 10 would have a caster level of 20, and would have 4 spell slots at every level from 0 to 9 (before bonus spells for high ability scores) and five domain slots for 1st to 5th level spells. However, he only has access to 5th-level cleric spells and 5th-level wizard spells. Still, he could use his higher-level spell slots to quicken, heighten, maximize or empower his lower-level spells. He won't be able to cast mass heal, but he can cast empowered mass cure light wounds. He won't be able to cast wail of the banshee, but he can cast heightened phantasmal killer.

A sorcerer 10/wizard 10 would have two lists of arcane spells known up to 5th level - one list he can cast spontaneously and apply metamagic on the fly, and another which he needs to prepare in spell slots. He should also get some bonus spell slots from his sorcerer levels, possibly two bonus spell slots at each spell level from 0 to 5th.

However, by my second proposal, the cleric10/wizard10 would have the full spellcasting abilities of a cleric15 and a wizard15.

isn't that what you get with a Mystic Theurge? Clr5/Wiz5/MT10, casts as a cleric15 and a wizard 15. Experience has demonstrated that the MT isn't unbalanced in play, which also suggests that this might be a usable solution.

So similarly a sor10/wiz10 would have the full spellcasting abilities of a sorcerer15 and a wizard15.

You don't need a unified spell list to make it work, it could 'just work' with any existing classes.

Let's see. A Ftr5/Wiz5/EK10 would be caster level 14 vs caster level 15 (ftr10/wiz10) in my system, and would be way lower in HD, but has a better BAB (+17 rather than +15, gets that extra iterative attack!). They might work out comparable (bearing in mind that EK might be considered a pretty pale class anyway).

 

[FireLance]

Let's see. A Ftr5/Wiz5/EK10 would be caster level 14 vs caster level 15 (ftr10/wiz10) in my system, and would be way lower in HD, but has a better BAB (+17 rather than +15, gets that extra iterative attack!). They might work out comparable (bearing in mind that EK might be considered a pretty pale class anyway).

Wouldn't this mean that a Ftr10 who takes a level of cleric or sorcerer immediately gains access to 3rd level spells, and a Ftr18 who does the same immediately gains access to 5th level spells? Even if the balance is not too far off, the sudden jump in spell access (not just spell slot access or caster level) might be too much for some players and DMs to swallow.