Is Multiclassing Balanced?

[airwalkrr]

A system I have been toying with over in House Rules is to give out a LA when multiclassing without increasing HD. HD is based on your highest level class and classes beyond that simply add to LA. In its current incarnation you gain a +1 LA for each class beyond the first, plus an additional +1 for every two levels beyond 1st in any additional classes. So a Ftr1/Wiz1 has an ECL of 2, but only 1 HD, a Ftr3/Wiz3 has an ECL of 5 but only 3 HD, a Ftr5/Wiz5 has an ECL of 8, but only 5 HD, and so on.

It is similar to the AD&D multiclassing rules and similar to gestalt, but in theory it sounds good. It is not as good as AD&D multiclassing (you won't remain as close in level to your party members), but it is not as bad as 3e multiclassing (a fighter/wizard has a higher bab than a wizard but lower than a fighter and is intermediate in class abilities between half and full, which in terms of effectiveness more closely approximates half).

 

[Sammael]

I am not sure I understand why HD has anything to do with multiclassing. Do you mean that you give out class features without granting additional hit dice? I.e. if I have a fighter 4 who picks up a level of wizard, he gets to cast 1st level spells, gains a familiar, and gets Scribe Scroll, but doesn't get +2 on Will saves or +1d4 hp? Or, similarly, a 4th level wizard who takes a level of fighter gets a bonus feat, but nothing else? How is this worth +1 LA?

 

[FireLance]

Besides all that, in a lot of ways it doesn't make much sense. A Ftr16 takes one level of wizard and suddenly his magic missiles do just as much damage as a Wiz5's? Why should the character who has spent all his life training as a fighter be better at magic just because he is older. He has no experience with magic. The young wizard fresh out of wizard school has spent his entire life studying magic and yet some old fart fighter can cast a better magic missile than he can. That doesn't seem right.

For that matter, a young 1st-level fighter has spent all his life in combat training, but a 10th-level wizard is likely to have better BAB and more hit points even without multiclassing into Fighter.

If you divorce the concept of "caster level" from formal training - perhaps it draws on mental or willpower reserves, or a connection to the ambient magic of the world that is developed by all classes (like BAB, or base saves, or hit points) - why should it be so surprising that an experienced character of any class can apply part of that experience to casting a spell better than a relatively inexperienced wizard?

 

[Psion]

For that matter, a young 1st-level fighter has spent all his life in combat training, but a 10th-level wizard is likely to have better BAB and more hit points even without multiclassing into Fighter.

True, but at least a 10th level wizard taking a level in fighter isn't jumping from +0 to +6 BAB, but from +5 to +6 bab.

And that wizard may have a bit more practice with his ray spells than a recruit fighter.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

The only real solution to the probnlem - if you even think a problem exists - is to do away with classes. Use a % system for everything - sort of like warhammer. Set the base % at any number you'd like, but zero would be easiest. But at each level-up, a character gets X amount of points to increase any % they want. [For ease of thought, In my mind I assume most major changes (ability mods, caster levels, etc) would be tied into a step function that increases with every full 10% or 20% acquisition in a category]

So, you'd have STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA, BAB, FORT, REFL, WILL, MUA, HP and possible a few more.

[MUA = Magic use ability] For example: At each level up a player gets 30% to divide up among those 12 % categories. [I simply picked 30 because 12/2 * 5 = 30, so that would allow a 5% increase for 6 of the categories at each level] A player could divide them however they wanted ... although you could certainly install a cap such as "no more than 10% on any category per level.

Every played would get a feat at every other level as per the fighter. All bonuses would have to be based off of a % system, although using something as simple as 0-9% (+0), 10-19 (+1), etc would work just fine. It'd need playtesting to figure out exactly. Instead of caster level, you now have a MUA which works at all times, and you could havecertain steps of the MUA % scale get so many points or level depending on whether you want a point system of a spell level system as now. Unless you split it up into AMUA and DMUA (for arcane/divine) you'd just create one huge list. I'm not sure that's a bad deal, though.

The thing with this system is that since it is a classless system and every gets % points to spread as they see fit ... but only enough points to increase half of their categories significantly at once it allows people to focus on what they want. If they wanted to increase HP, MUA, BAB at each of the levels that's fine ... but they've already used up three of their six 5% increases and haven't yet touched their saves or increasing any abilities.

Of course, that means that DCs would now move to a % die rather than a d20, but that'd be easily enough done.

Oh - and this is a simple idea off the top of my head. Please don't come along and be mean about finding holes in it ... because I admit I've put about 10 minutes of thought into it. It really did come off the top of my head.

 

[green slime]

I don't like the way multiclassing works at all.

It doesn't jive well with me that a character starts as a fighter, then suddenly picks a level of wizard, then another of fighter, then.... I guess that is what you get for having a digital system.

On top of that, you have the wierdness of two different spellcasting classes will invoke: Wizard/sorceror ? Cleric/Wizard should be a viable class, in any game, without introducing PrC's.

Then there is the matter of the "dead-levels" which are a horrible abomination in the base character classes, basically encouraging the player to switch to a PrC (which almost never suffer from this syndrome) or another class. And no other class suffers as much from "dead levels" as the fighter.

 

[Deadguy]

That's exactly what I was trying to suggest, Hussar. I think I should have spelled it out more expressly. Sorry.

 

[Barak]

Oh, and for those who still don't think multi-classing hoses spellcasters way too much, consider this.

Obviously, a 20th level Wizard will outcast a 10/10 fighter/wizard. But, amusingly, with the right spells he'll also outfight the poor fighter/wizard. Without any prior buff spells, even.

 

[Snapdragyn]

My option didn't exist (I voted 'too weak for all' as the closest I could get).

Because I've seen the effects of multiclassing on < full BAB classes, I have to say that they also suffer under the current multiclassing rules.

I mean, let's face it, BAB is added no matter what classes you choose, even if you decided to take all 1st-level in nonmartial classes (you could always incorporate the variant fractional BAB progression in Unearthed Arcana).

Correction: BAB is NOT added no matter what classes you choose UNLESS you incorporate the variant fractional BAB progression in UA. Not all DMs will do so.

I have made some astoundingly weak melee-focused builds because: a) I had a character concept which no single class nor PrC really met; b) I didn't want to wait until late teens levels to grow into the concept (as I would have if I'd planned the multiclassing to only take new 3/4 BAB classes every fourth level); & c) my DM didn't allow fractional BAB. +0 BAB every 2-3 levels HURTS a melee-focused character. I was not trying to create a god-build, merely an interesting character -- one whose design matched my concept. Instead, I created a comic relief weakling.

The current multiclassing rules simply do not work well for multiclassing 3/4 BAB characters without the fractional BAB variant -- & if it takes an optional rule to make the core rule work, then the core rule isn't working IMHO.

My actual vote: Multiclassing is balanced for full-BAB classes who multiclass into full-BAB classes. All others face a mixture of handicaps of varying severities.

 

[Felix]

a 20th level Wizard will outcast a 10/10 fighter/wizard.

Why be so wedded to the idea of even levels in your multiclassing? It's the least optimal build out there to do Non-caster 10/Caster 10. Trying to make that work is frustrating at best.

But Wizard 16/Fighter 4 is not going to be that much less powerful spell-wise than a Wizard 20. Neither will a Fighter 16/Wizard 4 have to fear getting out-meleed by the Wizard 20 (at least, not have to fear it any more than a Fighter 20).

I think the great part of 3e multiclassing is that it allows small forays into other classes to enhance the feel of what you're trying to do with your primary class. You no longer advance equally as you did in 2e (which I think fond rememberance of is part of why folks don't like the 3e multiclassing).

You're not a Fighter/Wizard. You're a Wizard who has some ability to fight. Or a fighter with a small arcane talent.

You're not a Wizard/Rogue, you're a sneaky Wizard. Or a thief who can use magical tricks to aid his theivery.

But if you want to be a Fighter/Wizard, then options exist for you in the form of PrC's.

But you really don't have to measure everything off of Wizard 10/Fighter 10. That's a hold-over from other editions, and is not something that needs to be made available with the core classes in 3e. 3e provides something else with its core classes (uneven multiclassing) and allows even multiclassing to be handled by PrCs. Fair trade, I think.