Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?

[Cheiromancer]

Yep. It is flavorless. As flavorless as a cleric/wizard. Which is just what you'd expect; it is a patch on the multiclassing rules. It is not a prestige class that gives flavor to a game world, it is just a way to make cleric/wizards mechanically less underpowered.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yep. It is flavorless. As flavorless as a cleric/wizard. Which is just what you'd expect; it is a patch on the multiclassing rules. It is not a prestige class that gives flavor to a game world, it is just a way to make cleric/wizards mechanically less underpowered.

Agreed. In some ways, I'm glad it doesn't have extreme organisational ties built into the class's abilities, as this prestige class is used by every Cleric/Wizard PC and NPC in any of my games (not that there are overly many of those, mind). It's just a way to make the concept work, and I can tie it to many organisations all at once.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

At 16th level a Mystic Theurge can cast the same amount of 7th level spells, and only misses out on 2 8th level spells (which are powerful, I agree) and is only 3 caster levels lower than a 16 level Wizard, but gains access to spells from both the cleric and Wizard spell lists, something a 16th level Wizard cannot normally claim, and that's not flexible.

You are forgetting bonus spells for high stats. That swells the advantage of the MT for the lower level spells but puts the MT at a disadvantage for highest level spells.

That 16th level wizard is vitually guaranteed to have at least a 26 Int, so he will have 3 8th level spells, not 2. 8th and 9th levels spells are just leaps and bounds better than the other spells. You cannot really compare a spellcaster who can cast Mind Blank, Otto's Irrestible Dance, and Maze in a day with one who cannot. Ditto for Gate, Dominate Monster, Timestop.

The 16th level MT is at the peak of his prowess when compared to a single-classed spellcaster. I am not saying he is bad at all. Certainly viable enough that I might consider playing it myself. But if it is not completely obvious that the 16th level MT is straight out better than a 16th level Wizard, than the class is not overpowered.

 

[Storm Raven]

At 16th level a Mystic Theurge can cast the same amount of 7th level spells, and only misses out on 2 8th level spells (which are powerful, I agree) and is only 3 caster levels lower than a 16 level Wizard, but gains access to spells from both the cleric and Wizard spell lists, something a 16th level Wizard cannot normally claim, and that's not flexible.

That's highly debateable, and highly selective. Look at a pair of characters equal level, point buy, and roughly equal relevant equipment:

Wizard (22 points)

16th level Wizard

Str 8; Int 30 (18 base, +4 level ups, +6 headband, + 2 book); Wis 10; Dex 10; Con 10: Cha 8

Arcane Spells - 0th: 4, 1st: 7, 2nd: 7, 3rd: 6, 4th: 6, 5th: 6, 6th: 4, 7th: 4, 8th: 3

I will note that he has access to any cleric spell of less than 5th level using limited wish, although it is expensive to do so. He also has full familiar progression, a caster level of 16, and three bonus wizard feats. He also has an average of 41.5 hit points.

Mystic Theurge

3rd level Cleric/3rd level Wizard/10th level Mystic Theurge

Str 8; Int 24 (16 base, +2 level ups, +6 headband); Wis 24 (16 base, +2 level ups, +6 periapt); Dex 8; Con 8; Cha 8

Arcane Spells - 0th: 4, 1st: 6, 2nd: 6, 3rd: 6, 4th: 5, 5th: 4, 6th: 3, 7th: 2
Divine Spells - 0th: 6, 1st: 7+1, 2nd: 7+1, 3rd: 6+1, 4th: 5+1, 5th: 4+1, 6th: 3+1, 7th: 2+1
TOTAL - 0th: 10, 1st: 13+1, 2nd: 13+1, 3rd: 12+1, 4th: 10+1, 5th: 9+1, 6th: 6+1, 7th: 4+1

He has no bonus feats. His caster level for these spells is 13, his familiar progression is limited to 3rd level, as is his turning ability. He has an average of 46.5 hit points. He does gain a pair of domains, with associated powers, and the value of this may vary wildly depending on the domains.

So, the net spell difference for the Mystic Theurge is:

0th: +6, 1st: +7, 2nd: +7, 3rd: +7, 4th: +5, 5th: +4, 6th: +3, 7th: +1, 8th: -3

Now, that seems like a lot of extra spells, however, one should note that the save DC for the straight wizard (exclusive of feats) is 10 + spell level. For the mystic theurge it is 7 + spell level. To gain the range of spells he has, the mystic theurge must effectively sacrifice 3 caster levels and 3 points of save DC, reducing the level dependent variables of his spells, and making it that much harder for his spells to have effect. The mystic theurge's sundry powers (familiar, turning) are mostly useless.

And then you get to the real kicker. The wizard is one level away from 9th level spells. When the two characters go up to 17th level, the wizard gains 1 6th level spell and 1 9th level spell. The mystic theurge (since he is maxed out in his PrC) gains a single 7th level spell. Now the wizard has two levels worth of spells that the mystic theurge has no access to, including, for example, wish, which he could use. for example, to make his casting attribute even higher. A 16th level mystic theurge is at the apex of his power curve, and it is all downhill from there. By picking 16th level, you skewed the results in favor of the mystic theurge, and there are still trade-offs that make the class less than obviously superior. If I had wanted to offset some of the "spell slots" advantage of the mystic theurge in the comparison, I could have made his comparative character a specialist wizard, or a cleric, both of which would have had the effect of giving the comparing character more spell slots.

I'm not saying the Mystic theurge is without merit, I'm just saying at +1/+1 cast as previous spellcasting class per level it is too powerful, and that I would prefer a cast as previous spellcasting class progression that only granted a total of +8/+8 over ten levels instead of +10/+10, so that it falls in between the abilities of a single classed wizard or cleric and the Multiclass wizard/cleric, instead of just behind the single classed wizard and so far ahead of the multi-classed wizard/cleric that not taking it makes absolutely no sense, which is where it is now. I even allow all Mystic theurge levels to count towards the spellcaster level of both classes, just not the spells per day.

The multiclass wizard/cleric makes no sense to play with or without the mystic theurge. Harping on such an obviously inferior choice in a discussion concerning the balanced nature of classes scores you no points. It just makes your argument look weak and trivial.

 

[FEADIN]

As a number of PrC the MT was made to help convert those old previous editions biclassed cleric/magicuser who became really underpowered, I know that I had at least 5 of them.
The MT saved me to convert one of my oldest character, even if I was not following the official conversion, I was cleric 9/wizard 17, officialy it's 20 levels = cl 3/wi 17.
I made it cleric 3/wizard 11/MT 6 = 20 levels, my friends say that it's the equivalent of a 22 lvl character.
I have lost only the feat of the 15 lvl of wizard by comparison with a cl 3/wiz 17....and the familiar powers but I haven't one.

 

[KarinsDad]

Then do not play in my game. If I feel that a character class does not fit the campaign then it is not allowed. I will not allow an Ooze Master in an Iron Kingdoms game for example (the player also wanted to play a samurai in the same setting, with the same answer). The flavor of a campaign is dependant upon many things, which prestige classes are allowed is one of them.

And I have allowed MT (as an example) in some campaign settings but not in others, even though I find it, well, rather dull without adding a lot more background.

Did you miss the part where I said "or totally divergent from the campaign"?

I have no problem with that.

In my campaign, I do not allow Oriental books or classes.

I am talking about not allowing the PrC because you think it is bland, not because it does not fit the campaign concept.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Did you miss the part where I said "or totally divergent from the campaign"?

I have no problem with that.

In my campaign, I do not allow Oriental books or classes.

I am talking about not allowing the PrC because you think it is bland, not because it does not fit the campaign concept.

Whoops, apparently I did.

Sorry - it was a knee jerk left over from Mr. Oozemaster... he had the amazing ability to pick the least appropriate PrCs in each book, then wonder why the answer was 'no'... Last I had heard he had joined up with a Greyhawk campaign, I hope he is happier there, having been released back into his native environment.

One of the things that I very much liked about Sorcery & Steam by Fantasy Flight was that it included an example organization for most of the PrCs, making them much less bland than otherwise.

I can see the MT being a PrC available only to characters with the Magic domain or some such, which is what I did in the homebrew game that I used it in, adding a little more flavor, if only by osmosis from the religion. For some reason I found the Arcane Hierophant, on the surface somewhat similar to the MT, to be a much more flavorful class.

The Auld Grump

 

[KarinsDad]

One of the things that I very much liked about Sorcery & Steam by Fantasy Flight was that it included an example organization for most of the PrCs, making them much less bland than otherwise.

I thought this should have been done in Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

I can see the MT being a PrC available only to characters with the Magic domain or some such, which is what I did in the homebrew game that I used it in, adding a little more flavor, if only by osmosis from the religion. For some reason I found the Arcane Hierophant, on the surface somewhat similar to the MT, to be a much more flavorful class.

Does this mean I can play in your game after all (and shine up my MT)?

 

[Veril]

To evaluate the MT total spell power, I take a slightly different view. Using the basic cleric, wizard and a W7/C3/MT10 you get the following totals - this ignores any extra spells for high wisdom and intelligence.

Take the number of spell at each level and multiple by the spell level - this gives you a "spell level total". I do this because higher levelled spells are generally better than low levelled spells, so this applies spell level weighting to the overall numbers involved.

Level	Cleric	Wizard	Mystic Thurge
1	2	1	1
2	3	2	2
3	7	4	4
4	10	7	6
5	16	10	7
6	21	15	11
7	30	20	17
8	37	27	26
9	49	34	36
10	58	43	50
11	74	52	64
12	85	63	83
13	105	74	101
14	118	87	126
15	142	100	148
16	157	115	179
17	185	130	192
18	202	147	205
19	214	163	220
20	223	180	235

At 9th level and up a MT starts to surpass a wizard in total number of spell levels available
At 14th the MT starts to surpass a cleric, however, except for 16th level, they are very similar (within 5%) - 16th is clearly the sweet spot for a MT.
n.b. A wizard always has less total spell levels than an equivalent levelled cleric, so much for being a pure spell caster eh!

If you take the "spell level total" at each level and multiply it by the caster level to get total "spell power" (because higher levelled spell casters spells are generally more powerful) you get the following table

Level	Cleric	Wizard	Mystic Thurge
1	2	1	1
2	6	4	4
3	21	12	12
4	40	28	14
5	80	50	18
6	126	90	33
7	210	140	68
8	296	216	130
9	441	306	216
10	580	430	350
11	814	572	512
12	1020	756	747
13	1365	962	1010
14	1652	1218	1386
15	2130	1500	1776
16	2512	1840	2327
17	3145	2210	2583
18	3636	2646	2865
19	4066	3097	3205
20	4460	3600	3575

(for the MT I did the calculation of spell level for each class differently then added them together)

The MT only pulls ahead of a wizard at 12th level.
A cleric alway has more spell power than a MT.

Personally I think MT's are significantly less powerful than clerics or wizards, that 3 level differece translates to a loss of a significant ammount of top level spells

 

[IcyCool]

Veril, how are you advancing the Mystic Theurge beyond 16th level? Keep in mind that once you've taken 10 levels of the Mystic Theurge prestige class (as a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10 has done), you can't take anymore until you are epic. So where are you getting your numbers for the MT from 17th level and up?