Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?

[green slime]

Absolutely none of the above mathematical/tabular comparisons actually take any consideration whatsoever of flexibility. This is why the 1st sorcerer comes out at 6.5 in KarinDads comparison, and appears to be almost 50% again more powerful than a cleric.

What value do you place on gaining access to an entire level of spells? Apparently none.

 

[Goolpsy]

Your scales aren't even considering the spells known by the casters...
adding that to the scales would put cleric in a sure 1st place, and mystic theurge at a 2nd or 3rd place together with wizard, leaving the sorc abit behind.. though not far

 

[KarinsDad]

Absolutely none of the above mathematical/tabular comparisons actually take any consideration whatsoever of flexibility. This is why the 1st sorcerer comes out at 6.5 in KarinDads comparison, and appears to be almost 50% again more powerful than a cleric.

What value do you place on gaining access to an entire level of spells? Apparently none.

What value do I place on spontaneous casting of all spells and metamagic on the fly?

I am talking relative power levels there.

Let me ask you a question. How many spells does a first level Cleric have access to compared to a first level Sorcerer?

Actuall spells, not "an entire level of spells".

3 0th and 2 1st (without bonus spells, with them, typically 3 0th and 3 1st) vs.
5 0th and 3 1st (without bonus spells, with them, typically 5 0th and 4 1st)

The Sorcerer has 50% more spells he can cast at any given time at first level. Hence, the reason it came out 6.5 to 4.5.

While it is true that the Cleric has versatility, the Cleric's versatility is not "on the spot immediate" except for Spontaneous Curing (or Inflicting).

The Cleric is stuck with whatever spells he choose for the day (shy of empty slots), just like everyone else.

The Cleric has versatility (can choose from a lot of spells). The Sorcerer has flexibiity (can spontaneously cast all of his spells and can metamagic on the fly).

Those things are a wash. You cannot say that the Cleric is versatile and then turn around and drop on the floor the fact that the Sorcerer is flexible.

 

[KarinsDad]

Your scales aren't even considering the spells known by the casters...
adding that to the scales would put cleric in a sure 1st place, and mystic theurge at a 2nd or 3rd place together with wizard, leaving the sorc abit behind.. though not far

Read my post above.

Your statement here is totally dropping the fact that the Sorcerer can Spontaneously Cast all of his spells and can Spontaneously Cast Metamagic spells.

That is the balance between straight casters and spontaneous casters that people tend to forget, and is a wash between the two.

 

[AuraSeer]

At high level, you never cast all of your spells in a given day. You often cast most of your high level spells in a given day.

This is an extremely important point, which I think some folks in this thread have missed.

Past the very early levels it is very uncommon to see any caster to use up every spell slot he has. A cleric may come close by using spontaneous cures, but even then he'll usually have a couple of small, leftover domain spells which can't be converted. A wizard doesn't even have the option of burning low-level slots that way, so when combat is over, his remaining magic missile or web whatever just goes to waste.

My current campaign is only at 7th character level, and already our MT finds himself unable to burn all his slots in one day. If he loads up on attack or debuff spells, there aren't enough rounds of combat in a day for him to cast them all. Buff spells are useful only when we have warning before combat; otherwise casting them would take up more of those scarce combat rounds. If he takes any utility spells or condition cures, there's plenty of time to use them, but they're only useful if we encounter the situation where they're needed.

Most days, the Theurge is in the same boat as my Warlock PC. It's nice that we (almost) never run out of casting ability, but there are only so many situations that call for spellcasting. By the end of the day you'll run out of useful things to do with magic, regardless of how much juice is left in your battery.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with Auraseer & Karinsdad on the point about running out of spells.

How often this occurs varies by campaign, but on days where you have only 1-2 combats those highest level spells are immensely valuable. In those situations, the single-classed spellcaster looks vastly better than an MT.

At higher levels, the cost of taking a precious Action during or in the short prep time before combat is very significant. Having extra low level spells is not a noticeable advantage unless you have the luxury of combat on your terms.

 

[green slime]

Let me ask you a question. How many spells does a first level Cleric have access to compared to a first level Sorcerer?

Actuall spells, not "an entire level of spells".

3 0th and 2 1st (without bonus spells, with them, typically 3 0th and 3 1st) vs.
5 0th and 3 1st (without bonus spells, with them, typically 5 0th and 4 1st)

The Sorcerer has 50% more spells he can cast at any given time at first level. Hence, the reason it came out 6.5 to 4.5.

While it is true that the Cleric has versatility, the Cleric's versatility is not "on the spot immediate" except for Spontaneous Curing (or Inflicting).

The 1st level sorcerer knows only two (2) first level spells. So of three spell slots, he can only cast two different spells. (And it'll be the same two spells he knows tomorrow.)

The cleric can memorize two different first level spells, and actually has three available (counting spontaneous curing) although he may only cast two.

This difference is not expressed in a simple 6.5 to 4.5 ratio. While it may be more correct than the previous comparisons made, it too has flaws. It is important to be aware of them, when looking at the comparison, otherwise some people will reach incorrect conclusions.

 

[KarinsDad]

The 1st level sorcerer knows only two (2) first level spells. So of three spell slots, he can only cast two different spells. (And it'll be the same two spells he knows tomorrow.)

The cleric can memorize two different first level spells, and actually has three available (counting spontaneous curing) although he may only cast two.

This difference is not expressed in a simple 6.5 to 4.5 ratio. While it may be more correct than the previous comparisons made, it too has flaws. It is important to be aware of them, when looking at the comparison, otherwise some people will reach incorrect conclusions.

You assume those are flaws because a Cleric has many to choose from. The Sorcerer cannot do this.

I assume that it is not a flaw because the Sorcerer can always spontaneously cast and can also spontaneously metamagic. The Cleric cannot do this (except for Cure spells).

The Sorcerer might be limited to 2 1st level spells, but if one of them is offensive, he always has an offensive spell until he runs out of 1st level spells.

For some reason, you are equivocally stating that the disadvantage of the Sorcerer affects the equation, but the disadvantage of the Cleric does not.

 

[green slime]

You assume those are flaws because a Cleric has many to choose from. The Sorcerer cannot do this.

I assume that it is not a flaw because the Sorcerer can always spontaneously cast and can also spontaneously metamagic. The Cleric cannot do this (except for Cure spells).

The Sorcerer might be limited to 2 1st level spells, but if one of them is offensive, he always has an offensive spell until he runs out of 1st level spells.

For some reason, you are equivocally stating that the disadvantage of the Sorcerer affects the equation, but the disadvantage of the Cleric does not.

That is not what I am stating at all...

The sorcerer's inherent advantage is accounted for in your comparison: the number of spells castable per day. What isn't present in the comparison, is the cleric's advantage. Whether you want to call the cleric's advantage the sorcerer's disadvantage, is a matter of perception. As the whole purpose of this comparison was to have some kind of method to compare MT versus straight spellcasters, it should also take into account other abilities and limitations of those spellcasters.

AS such, I find your comparison interesting, but limited. But I do not have a better formula, either.

 

[KarinsDad]

That is not what I am stating at all...

The sorcerer's inherent advantage is accounted for in your comparison: the number of spells castable per day.

That is not his only inherent advantage.

The Sorcerer also has the advantage of casting spontaneously. That's HUGE.

The Sorcerer also has the advantage of casting metamagic spontaneously. That's REALLY HUGE, even though some people totally forget that this is the one really major thing that Sorcerers and Bard can do that no other core class can do (except Clerics with Spontaneous Cures and Druids with Spontaneous Summons, a very limited set of spells).

Many people consider Bards and Sorcerers less effective in spell casting when they are two of the most effective spell casters around.

It cracks me up that people think that Bards are weak.

In fact, we will (most likely depending on PC actions) be having a 4 NPC vs. 5 PC battle where most of the NPCs are one level lower than the PCs tomorrow. One of the NPCs is a bard. Even being outnumbered 5 to 4 and being a level lower and having a Bard on the team, I expect the NPCs to seriously challenge the PCs.

What isn't present in the comparison, is the cleric's advantage.

The Cleric has an advantage of many different known spells to select from. That's HUGE.


The equation takes into account only number of spells castable per day for all caster types.

It does not take into account other advantages and disadvantages.


I consider most of spell advantages of a Cleric versus spell advantages of a Sorcerer to be a wash. The Cleric has pros and cons with his spells. The Sorcerer has pros and cons with his spells. They just happen to be different.

It's the number of higher level spells which is most important (for the most part).


Btw, Cleric Domain spells are selected from a very small select group of spells, even smaller than the spell selection of a Sorcerer. But, the equation ignores that. Cleric Domain spells are still listed in the equation as spells the Cleric can cast, even though the Cleric is really restricted on what he can cast with them.