Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?

[Hypersmurf]

I said it's debateable because as far as I know the only source for alternating epic progression is some article on the WotC web site. The ELH says caster level continues to progress as normal.

It says "caster level continues to increase". It doesn't specify 'as normal'.

A Theurge's arcane caster level continues to increase... at a rate of 1 caster level per two class levels. A Theurge's divine caster level continues to increase... at a rate of 1 caster level per two class levels. This progression does not contradict the ELH rule.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

And yes I understand alot of people think multi-classed spell casters are underpowered, I'm just not one of them, I see the decision to multi-class as giving up power for versatility.

Except that you aren't gaining flexibility, you are losing it.

When I said this earlier...

I'd argue that a Mystic Theurge gives up almost as much flexibility as he gains. Higher level spells of a single-class caster are not just more powerfull, they are also an additional options (ie flexibility) that an MT doesn't have.

...it was hyperbole.

In the case of the straight Wiz/Clr multiclass, it's literally true. They trade the ability to do whatever the normal schticks for their class are, for the ability to do nothing much at all.



glass.

 

[glass]

It says "caster level continues to increase". It doesn't specify 'as normal'.

A Theurge's arcane caster level continues to increase... at a rate of 1 caster level per two class levels. A Theurge's divine caster level continues to increase... at a rate of 1 caster level per two class levels. This progression does not contradict the ELH rule.

True, although I'd argue that 'at the same rate' it is implied. And as I have already admitted, they are only guidelines anyway.

I probably wouldn't have a problem with their departing from the guidelines for the epic MT if the result was a balanced class, but as it stands, it is exactly like alternating Wiz and Cleric levels but with fewer hp and feats.

EDIT: In other words, the epic MT progression is a long winded way of saying 'don't bother'. I would prefer it if they'd just come out and said that.


glass.

 

[beepeearr]

Except that you aren't gaining flexibility, you are losing it.

At 16th level a Mystic Theurge can cast the same amount of 7th level spells, and only misses out on 2 8th level spells (which are powerful, I agree) and is only 3 caster levels lower than a 16 level Wizard, but gains access to spells from both the cleric and Wizard spell lists, something a 16th level Wizard cannot normally claim, and that's not flexible.

I'm not saying the Mystic theurge is without merit, I'm just saying at +1/+1 cast as previous spellcasting class per level it is too powerful, and that I would prefer a cast as previous spellcasting class progression that only granted a total of +8/+8 over ten levels instead of +10/+10, so that it falls in between the abilities of a single classed wizard or cleric and the Multiclass wizard/cleric, instead of just behind the single classed wizard and so far ahead of the multi-classed wizard/cleric that not taking it makes absolutely no sense, which is where it is now. I even allow all Mystic theurge levels to count towards the spellcaster level of both classes, just not the spells per day.

 

[Thanee]

The Mystic Theurge is so far ahead of the pure Cleric/Wizard multiclass, because the pure Cleric/Wizard multiclass is such utter crap.

Balance is delicate at higher levels, but I think it is done fairly well. Losing one or two spell levels from the highest ones is a rather big downside for a *pure* spellcaster.

Bye
Thanee

 

[glass]

At 16th level a Mystic Theurge can cast the same amount of 7th level spells, and only misses out on 2 8th level spells (which are powerful, I agree) and is only 3 caster levels lower than a 16 level Wizard, but gains access to spells from both the cleric and Wizard spell lists, something a 16th level Wizard cannot normally claim, and that's not flexible.

No, he misses out on all 8th level spells compared with a 16th level cleric, and potentially all 8th level spells compared with an 8th level wizard (allbeit with a gp cost for the wizard).


glass.

 

[green slime]

No, he misses out on all 8th level spells compared with a 16th level cleric, and potentially all 8th level spells compared with an 8th level wizard (allbeit with a gp cost for the wizard).


glass.

And suffers from trying to maintain a decent score in two spellcasting abilities, which more than makes up for any outlay the wizard has for obtaining a few high level scrolls to scribe into his spellbook.

 

[Particle_Man]

I will repeat, yes a straight wizard or cleric will have more powerful spells, but the Mystic Theurge will have slightly less powerful spells, but a lot more of them to use per day.

God only knows what you would make of the Warlock in Complete Arcane then. They can use their invocations as standard actions, and never use them up. That amounts to 14 400 invocations in a standard day, I believe.

 

[AuraSeer]

I'm not saying the Mystic theurge is without merit, I'm just saying at +1/+1 cast as previous spellcasting class per level it is too powerful, and that I would prefer a cast as previous spellcasting class progression that only granted a total of +8/+8 over ten levels instead of +10/+10, so that it falls in between the abilities of a single classed wizard or cleric and the Multiclass wizard/cleric, instead of just behind the single classed wizard and so far ahead of the multi-classed wizard/cleric that not taking it makes absolutely no sense, which is where it is now.

Comparing to the multiclass wizard/cleric is unfair. Without a prestige class, that character type is so underpowered it's nearly unplayable; anything looks powerful compared to that. You could use the same logic to say that the base fighter is too strong, because he's much better than the joke character with one level in every base class.

The only comparison that makes sense is between the PrC and the base spellcasters, and in that the MT comes out significantly behind. In actual play, as the class is written, it is much less powerful than any single-class primary caster. Nerfing it beyond that is just unnecessarily mean.

Out of curiousity, have you ever used the MT as written, or are you judging it on paper? The first time I heard about the class I also assumed it'd be overpowered, but seeing its drawbacks in play convinced me otherwise.

 

[ARandomGod]

Comparing to the multiclass wizard/cleric is unfair. Without a prestige class, that character type is so underpowered it's nearly unplayable; anything looks powerful compared to that. You could use the same logic to say that the base fighter is too strong, because he's much better than the joke character with one level in every base class.

Here I have to disagree... nearly unplayable? I'd have to say completely unplayable.