Is Mystic Theurge a balanced P. class?
- Thread starter darthkilmor
- Start date
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
Thanee said:Or Bard.
Cleric/Warmage is probably quite nice as a Mystic Theurge, even though the extra level you lose is harsh.
Oooo...
Paladin/Warmage.
Brad (who's not being entirely serious here...but it'd be a great gestalt combo!)
A 10th level Mystic Theurge Cleric/Wizard Combo has a total number of spells per level per day of
10 0-level spells
9 1st level spells
7 2nd level spells
5 3rd level spells
3 4th level spells
and a caster level of 7 for both cleric and wizard
compared to the following for a straight wizard
4 0-level spells
4 1st level spells
4 2nd level spells
3 3rd level spells
3 4th level spells
2 5th level spells
or the following for a straight cleric
6 0-level spells
5 1st level spells
5 2nd level spells
4 3rd level spells
4 4th level spells
3 5th level spells
but the kicker (for me anyway) is the difference between the Mystic Theurge and a straight cleric/wizard multiclass. And yes I understand alot of people think multi-classed spell casters are underpowered, I'm just not one of them, I see the decision to multi-class as giving up power for versatility.
9 0-level spells
7 1st level spells
5 2nd level spells
3 3rd level spells
with a caster level of 5 for both wizard and cleric. The more Mystic Theurge levels you have the difference between a straight wizard or cleric and the Mystic theurge shrinks while the difference of a the mystic theurge and the cleric/wizard becomes wider. I don't think the mystic theurge is horribly broken, just broken. Decrease the number of cast as "previous class" to around 8 levels of both wizard and cleric and at least the spells per day falls somewhere between the multi-class Wizard/Cleric and the Straight level Wizard or cleric.
I will repeat, yes a straight wizard or cleric will have more powerful spells, but the Mystic Theurge will have slightly less powerful spells, but a lot more of them to use per day. At 16th level the Mystic Theurge will have all the spell casting power of a both a 13th level Wizard (max spell level 7) and a 13 level cleric (max spell level 7th), whereas the the straight Cleric or Wizard has only a max spell level of 8th, and Wizard/Cleric 8/8 has only a max spell level of 4th for both wizard and cleric.
At 16th level a Mystic Theurge will have almost double the number of spells per day for 0, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, 3 more 5th level spells, 2 more 6th level spells, an equal number of 7th level spells, and no 8th level spells, and a Spell caster level of 13th. While a 16 level wizard only has two 8th level spells over and 3 caster levels, and 4 metamagic or Item creation feat over the Mystic Theurge.
This is just my opinion, your opinion may vary.
10 0-level spells
9 1st level spells
7 2nd level spells
5 3rd level spells
3 4th level spells
and a caster level of 7 for both cleric and wizard
compared to the following for a straight wizard
4 0-level spells
4 1st level spells
4 2nd level spells
3 3rd level spells
3 4th level spells
2 5th level spells
or the following for a straight cleric
6 0-level spells
5 1st level spells
5 2nd level spells
4 3rd level spells
4 4th level spells
3 5th level spells
but the kicker (for me anyway) is the difference between the Mystic Theurge and a straight cleric/wizard multiclass. And yes I understand alot of people think multi-classed spell casters are underpowered, I'm just not one of them, I see the decision to multi-class as giving up power for versatility.
9 0-level spells
7 1st level spells
5 2nd level spells
3 3rd level spells
with a caster level of 5 for both wizard and cleric. The more Mystic Theurge levels you have the difference between a straight wizard or cleric and the Mystic theurge shrinks while the difference of a the mystic theurge and the cleric/wizard becomes wider. I don't think the mystic theurge is horribly broken, just broken. Decrease the number of cast as "previous class" to around 8 levels of both wizard and cleric and at least the spells per day falls somewhere between the multi-class Wizard/Cleric and the Straight level Wizard or cleric.
I will repeat, yes a straight wizard or cleric will have more powerful spells, but the Mystic Theurge will have slightly less powerful spells, but a lot more of them to use per day. At 16th level the Mystic Theurge will have all the spell casting power of a both a 13th level Wizard (max spell level 7) and a 13 level cleric (max spell level 7th), whereas the the straight Cleric or Wizard has only a max spell level of 8th, and Wizard/Cleric 8/8 has only a max spell level of 4th for both wizard and cleric.
At 16th level a Mystic Theurge will have almost double the number of spells per day for 0, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, 3 more 5th level spells, 2 more 6th level spells, an equal number of 7th level spells, and no 8th level spells, and a Spell caster level of 13th. While a 16 level wizard only has two 8th level spells over and 3 caster levels, and 4 metamagic or Item creation feat over the Mystic Theurge.
This is just my opinion, your opinion may vary.
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Twinkish?
It looks reasonably powerful if you are 15th or higher level. But I would consider it torture to have to play that class through levels 4th-10th. I can see why some players might consider a decent tradeoff once you hit 10th.
Personally, if I were DMing I would encourage a PC to take MT. From my POV, it gives the party lots of staying power and flexibility while giving the DM a monopoly on the really powerful higher level mojo.
It looks reasonably powerful if you are 15th or higher level. But I would consider it torture to have to play that class through levels 4th-10th. I can see why some players might consider a decent tradeoff once you hit 10th.
Personally, if I were DMing I would encourage a PC to take MT. From my POV, it gives the party lots of staying power and flexibility while giving the DM a monopoly on the really powerful higher level mojo.
Bront
The man with the probe
A Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is a HUGE downside, and is the weekest point of the MT advancement. Even with the older spell adjustments. If taking 3 levels of a class that's abilities are generaly counter of the other's (Mage can't wear a cleric's armor, weapon selection isn't that much better, spells don't work off each other, spell casting doesn't build for both, and even the skill selection isn't exactly fantastic for either class. Also, you've given up 3 levels of buffs for your Familiar AND your turn undead.
The MT is mostly to allow for a mutli-class caster in the current rules, because otherwise, multi-classing as a caster generaly isn't that great. Same with the Eldrich Knight and the Acrane Trickster. Otherwise, multiclassing with a spell caster tends to get messy, and you loose out on a lot of the flavor and power of the origional class, because spell casting doesn't stack in any way with non-spell casting levels like most other non-spell casting abilities (Skills still stack, BAB and saves stack, HP stack, most special abilities can be stacked or used by multiple classes, and feats stack).
Lousifer
First Post
Gee, I lost my "beating the dead horse" animated GIF in a computer reformat...
Too bad.
Just to toss my 2c in... I was another who thought the Mystic Theurge (MT) was overpowered. It's not. In fact, in a campaign that goes to epic levels, it's vastly underpowered. It's only "powerful" from level 15-21 or so, and the epic level progression nerfs it from then on out.
If you want to discuss overpowered prestige classes, please look at the Red Wizard or the Archmage, both of which have more "flavor," so they'd probably be rated as OK.
Since when is adding flavor something that is "too much work" for a GM to do? I MUCH prefer prestige classes that don't come tied to some stupid cult/organization/whatever for my game world because I can add all that baggage myself, thank you very much. For the MT and Eldritch Knight (EK), I just added organizations that made sense. Multiclassing a spellcaster without such prestige classes is such a suboptimal option, it's not funny.... And both of these classes "patch" this without adding lots of other funky abilities one needs to balance.
As far as "oh noes, he'll be able to cast bull's strength like 14 times per day!!!!," umm... an MT is either down caster levels from the multiclassing or they're down 2 feats from taking Practiced Spellcaster twice. If the buffs are REALLY that big an issue, I suggest you take a look at this spell and read the section labeled with Area Dispel. It will be greatly enlightening, I assure you.
Too bad.
Just to toss my 2c in... I was another who thought the Mystic Theurge (MT) was overpowered. It's not. In fact, in a campaign that goes to epic levels, it's vastly underpowered. It's only "powerful" from level 15-21 or so, and the epic level progression nerfs it from then on out.
If you want to discuss overpowered prestige classes, please look at the Red Wizard or the Archmage, both of which have more "flavor," so they'd probably be rated as OK.
Since when is adding flavor something that is "too much work" for a GM to do? I MUCH prefer prestige classes that don't come tied to some stupid cult/organization/whatever for my game world because I can add all that baggage myself, thank you very much. For the MT and Eldritch Knight (EK), I just added organizations that made sense. Multiclassing a spellcaster without such prestige classes is such a suboptimal option, it's not funny.... And both of these classes "patch" this without adding lots of other funky abilities one needs to balance.
As far as "oh noes, he'll be able to cast bull's strength like 14 times per day!!!!," umm... an MT is either down caster levels from the multiclassing or they're down 2 feats from taking Practiced Spellcaster twice. If the buffs are REALLY that big an issue, I suggest you take a look at this spell and read the section labeled with Area Dispel. It will be greatly enlightening, I assure you.
glass
(he, him)
It can't possibly say that in the Epic Level Handbook. The ELH is a 3.0 book which predates the 3.5 DMG, and therefore the MT, by some months (if not years). EDIT: Which you acknowledge in the post below the one I replied to.IcyCool said:
I said it's debateable because as far as I know the only source for alternating epic progression is some article on the WotC web site. The ELH says caster level continues to progress as normal.
Anyone who's been in a debate with me before knows how much weight I give to random articles on the web site (ie none).
glass.
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