Pathfinder 1E Is PAIZO becoming the next Wizards?

[rounser]

It seemed like a lot of 4e was put in place because it fit into the best "marketing scheme" for WotC. Emphasis on minis (cash cow), easier to build a digital interface for (DDI and subscription revenue streams), trying to capture the MMO crowd, the new artwork for a younger audience, the "Emo" dragonborn and tiefling races.......as a whole it all just had this calculated, sterile, corporate marketing-department feel to the whole production.

This, a hundred times this. It looks and feels insincere, fake, opportunistic and patronising to me too. We've gone from high gygaxian which trusted you and treated you as a smart peer and bolstered your vocabulary in 1E AD&D to cheesey and purple prosed catchphrases ruining immersion and pretending all characters are super tough and cool with 4E. What went wrong?

Hmm, lets see: Emo, MMORPG, corporate design-by-commitee... you forgot anime. And i remember reading nearly exactly the same post back on the old Planet AD&D, only that (of course), TSR was the organic, roleplaying games for gamers company while 3rd and Wizards was all about cold, chrome-and-steel design.

Yes Keefe, it's all in our heads, nothing to see here. Ever considered that in a world of shades of grey, it's possible things aren't all black and white, and they've gone much further down this path? No, it's to be completely dismissed as crying wolf.

Incidentally, you could see the beginnings of this sort of thing with 3E, such as the contents of the monster manual being calculated to have "must have a sound attack monster of EL 3" ruining the thing because whether the monster was resonant and cool seemed secondary to that. I dislike the 3E MM to this day. Yrthaks, digesters etc. And where Monte said that he wasn't to point out that 3E could be played minis optional in the DMG.

 

[Windjammer]

Yes Keefe, it's all in our heads, nothing to see here. Ever considered that in a world of shades of grey, it's possible things aren't all black and white, and they've gone much further down this path? No, it's to be completely dismissed as crying wolf.

Not that you've intended it, but I think you inadvertently succeeded at placing one of the best puns on this site ever. Why? Because of this:

Language and the Dumb: WotC Goes Emo?

There’s no polite way to say this, but a lot of the writing and language in PHB2 are just a little stupid. This isn’t restricted to things like the (embarrassingly bad, half-page-long) index, but rather it’s about the low quality of the prose throughout.



The paragon path for the elf Twilight Guardian starts with “Despoiler! Feel nature’s wrath!“. The Druid entry starts “I am the seeker. I am the stalker. I am the storm.” Both strike me as better left as flavor text on a Magic card than inspirational material for serious D&D players. Maybe it’s just the prevalence of elfy-welfy stuff around the Primal source that’s getting under my skin, but…


Well, fantasy writing has always made room for bombast and overblown, purple prose, but this book cranks it up a couple notches. Words like “peril” and “supplicate” are dropped into sentences that really don’t need them; almost every tagline is “ferocious” or “erupting” or “assaulting”. These are not huge problems; individually, they’re pebbles. But even enough pebbles can be a problem.


It reminds me of some of the worst examples from the White Wolf books of the 90s. Hell, some of the Primal language in particular would be right at home in a Werewolf supplement. Ah, well, flavor is not a 4E strong point, but we’re heading into the realm of comedy this time out. I found myself laughing fairly often, usually not a good sign.



Beyond the pulp diction, there’s plenty of other examples of the flavor just not synching up with the mechanics, or failures of language and mythmaking. The devas are reincarnation-flavored and derived from Hindu myth, but their suggested names include Biblical nods like Samel and Zachar (Samuel and Zacharia).


There’s the lurking sense that the designers are cribbing from bad manga, rather than building on the shoulders of the D&D game’s own mythos. That’s a lost opportunity, and it’s a shame that a game that once prized itself on appealing to an educated audience is no longer even aiming for that. Basically, the PHB2 assumes you are sort of an idiot, whereas Gygax always assumed you were smarter than the average reader. The shift leaves me a little offended.

Seriously, once the giants of the D&D industry say these things, Keefe's quick dismissal strikes me as highly insincere. I love 4E as a game, but boy, that prose can't be salvaged.

 

[Jhaelen]

Seriously, once the giants of the D&D industry say these things, Keefe's quick dismissal strikes me as highly insincere. I love 4E as a game, but boy, that prose can't be salvaged.

Apparently even giants have their bad days... to me this is a good example why you should read your posts before hitting the submit button. Where did this appear? In his personal blog or in some forum?

I guess, it's good I'm not a native English speaker. Apparently, the 4e PHB2 prose is less cringeworthy if you aren't fluent in it

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not that you've intended it, but I think you inadvertently succeeded at placing one of the best puns on this site ever. Why? Because of this:



Seriously, once the giants of the D&D industry say these things, Keefe's quick dismissal strikes me as highly insincere. I love 4E as a game, but boy, that prose can't be salvaged.

I thought he was called Wolfgang Baur?

 

[diaglo]

I guess, it's good I'm not a native English speaker. Apparently, the 4e PHB2 prose is less cringeworthy if you aren't fluent in it

d00d,

you just made my morning. thanks. if i didn't have such a large sig this would be a wonderful addition to it.

 

[Windjammer]

I thought he was called Wolfgang Baur?

That's what his friends call him. Either that or Wolfie. I forget which it is.

We are talking about the guy who once said that the reject pile for (submissions to) Dungeon magazine on his desk made him whince and lament the American education system. Or more precisely, the failings thereof.

From that perspective, it must be bit hard to fight off the impression that the guys from that reject pile are now running the show.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

This, a hundred times this. It looks and feels insincere, fake, opportunistic and patronising to me too. We've gone from high gygaxian which trusted you and treated you as a smart peer and bolstered your vocabulary in 1E AD&D to cheesey and purple prosed catchphrases ruining immersion and pretending all characters are super tough and cool with 4E. What went wrong?

Yes Keefe, it's all in our heads, nothing to see here. Ever considered that in a world of shades of grey, it's possible things aren't all black and white, and they've gone much further down this path? No, it's to be completely dismissed as crying wolf.

Incidentally, you could see the beginnings of this sort of thing with 3E, such as the contents of the monster manual being calculated to have "must have a sound attack monster of EL 3" ruining the thing because whether the monster was resonant and cool seemed secondary to that. I dislike the 3E MM to this day. Yrthaks, digesters etc. And where Monte said that he wasn't to point out that 3E could be played minis optional in the DMG.

First, you post this:

It looks and feels insincere, fake, opportunistic and patronising to me too. We've gone from high gygaxian which trusted you and treated you as a smart peer and bolstered your vocabulary in 1E AD&D to cheesey and purple prosed catchphrases ruining immersion and pretending all characters are super tough and cool with 4E.

And then you said things are not black and white? Excuse me? What is painting the situation as more black and white than that?

I´m not even saying that you´re wrong. But as i see it, this was a discussion about the relative strengths of Paizo - as a company and in regard to their products. And yes, i will call out and criticise people who can do that only by bashing 4e. Especially when the usual catchphrases are thrown around.

Paizo is a great company. They don´t deserve fans who can praise them only by bashing the competition.

And please, people, stop using the word 'emo' as synonymos for 'juvenile', 'whiny' and 'me don´t like'. It just shows how old the whole RPG crowd has become.

 

[rounser]

And then you said things are not black and white? Excuse me? What is painting the situation as more black and white than that?

That's nice fancy footwork on your part, but you're the one trying to flick the lightswitch and pretend there's no problem here. I SAID IT'S MY OPINION. Yes, my take is negative, and perhaps overstated because of frustration, but I've got a very dim view of what's been done to D&D. That's still a shade of grey, albeit a dark one, and I don't pretend it's definitive.

You're trying to dismiss concerns about the tendency towards kewl powerz and purple prose outright using that "old faithful" canard of an argument by ridicule, in a vain attempt to disarm the threat quickly.

Paizo is a great company. They don´t deserve fans who can praise them only by bashing the competition.

That's an excellent non-sequitur. I can tell you're threatened because you're using ad hominem attacks.

And please, people, stop using the word 'emo' as synonymos for 'juvenile', 'whiny' and 'me don´t like'. It just shows how old the whole RPG crowd has become.

More ad hominem attacks. More dirty tricks from Keefe. Quick, disarm the threat, attack the infidels personally, and dismiss the points outright.

 

[Piratecat]

Stop arguing, folks. Making personal attacks, snide comments and veiled insults is going to get you booted.

Are you in this thread to attack Paizo or WotC, or to bash a game system or the people who play it? Then don't post. Are you here to actually discuss Paizo's development? Then carry on.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

I could have sworn I read a statement by Lisa stevens that Paizo was the 2nd largest company in the industry now. I could be mistaken however.