Pathfinder 1E Is PAIZO becoming the next Wizards?

[PaizoCEO]

Re: Is Paizo Becoming the next Wizards?

I don't think so. Wizards of the Coast basically made (and makes) most of his money with its collectible card games. They didn't start out as a roleplaying game company, and they aren't only that now, either.

As the first employee at Wizards I can tell you that, yes indeed, we started off as a roleplaying game company. We put out a series of products called The Primal Order, published the third edition of Talislanta, put out the second edition of the Complete Alchemist, had plans to publish new products for a game called Interstellar Combat Elite, published a Jonathan Tweet RPG called Everway and even bought the rights to Ars Magica. Most of this happened before Magic: The Gathering. Just setting the record straight.

-Lisa Stevens
CEO
Paizo Publishing

 

[Scribble]

Sadly, I have to agree with this. When i think of Wizards these days, I think of how we found out about the license for Dungeon and Dragon mags got cancelled. I think of dragonborn in the forgotten realms and other similar examples that I really don't want to think about.

When I think of Paizo, I think of a thread I started like 2-3 years ago where I asked what would people like to see from Paizo and how someone thread necroed it a month or two ago and we saw how many suggestions on that thread are now Paizo product lines.

On a very gut level, I am disappointed with Wizards. It saddens me that that is the case.

Not liking the products the company puts out isn't really the same as that company not leading the industry though.

A lot of what you mentioned Paizo doing might be signs of a likable company making business decisions that are good for its own prosperity... but what about those ideas/decisions are really pointing others in new directions?

I can somewhat agree with you though-

I think WoTC let their role as leader lapse over the previous few years. They kind of sat back content to just keep doing what they did (release book after book) while others drove the industry a bit more... (For instance I credit Monte Cook for the birth of the pdf market.)

I don't however really agree that Paizo is the industry leader. It's a great company don't get me wrong, but I'm not seeing it push the market in the ways an industry leader should/would.

Like it or not WoTC is doing a LOT right now to drive the market, and make changes that it (one assumes) feels will grow the industry. (And it's about time.)

New product types, new ways of delivering content, new ways to reach out to their consumer base, new ways to make use of their product... Even the idea of taking a look at their product and finding ways to make it easier to get into.

Take a look at the upcoming Gama World:

Not only is it a new direction of using the game rules (quick hits designed to supplement your gaming, not split you in a new direction) but new ways to deliver content to that game as well (the cards.)


I think really the true test will be in a few years though. Will these changes prove effective at moving the industry forward or not?

If they are, I can guarantee we'll see a lot more companies following in their footsteps.

 

[Windjammer]

Is Paizo's fluff innovative? There's a lot of it, but there's a lot for other games too including older editions of D&D. Otherwise Golarion is pretty much a generic kitchen sink D&D setting. Though the production quality is generally high. But if you're looking for innovative in it, you're looking for something that I suspect isn't even the aim.

I'd recommend having a look at The Great Beyond, which explains the new multiverse.

You got a point, though. For instance, it's hard to look at Golarion's Demon Princes and then place Fiendish Codex I on the table and see real differences. But that's not surprising. It's the same fiendish genius behind both books.

Never forget that a lot of the really great WotC stuff was written by Paizo regulars. Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, Faiths & Pantheons, Lords of Madness, the already mentioned Fiendish Codex I. And that's even before we get to Eberron, with Eyes of the Lich Queen etc. From a certain POV then, part of the current overlap in content we see have to do with Paizo writers copying their own stuff they previously did for WotC, and not so much with Paizo writers copying WotC writers (and they better not ever start on that ).

Beyond the recent past, yes, Golarion is all about keeping the traditions of a D&D setting in place when 4E went a more radical way. Not just the naming of the Inner Sea, but if you actually look at the "Second Darkness" adventure path, you'll see that it's got 3.0 Forgotten Realms all over: the map for the elven city in adventure #3 looks almost identical to the one Paizo did for Myth Drannor in Dragon magazine 350-something; the drow city is named Zaknafein, nearly enough, and the adventure then returns to another elven forest kingdom infested by devils... Temptation of Elminster opening chapter, sort of thing.

I mean, let's get serious. There are two major factors at work here. Paizo writers put out amazing background material for the 3.x settings both in their in-house magazines and in some WotC hardbacks they were comissioned for. So it's not like these writers will forego their core competence. Second, WotC itself turns its back on the best selling one of those settings, the 3.x Realms. Frankly, Paizo'd have been nuts to not jump on the occasion to make Golarion the new Realms in the vaccum which 4E left. (I love the other New Realms - 4E -, but I'm one of two people globally who do so. Perhaps three.) Picking up the novels with Cunningham and co. is just the next logical step.

That said, from my purely personal, egoistical POV I'm quite sad Paizo went that way. My great love is for the Greyhawk years in Paizo's print run for Dungeon and Dragon. All that's gone. Not just because the copyrighted names are now sealed forever (with Expedition to the Ruins of... being an impressive capstone, if sadly so), but because that's not where the greatest part of the orphaned 3.x fanbase put their wallet. If I had my way, I'd ask Paizo to re-employ Mona in author position and have him produce 5-6 handy hardbacks on Greyhawk with deadly dungeons and the whole Circle of 8 running nuts thing superhero style.

Alas, can't have everything in life.

 

[unan oranis]

For now, Paizo is just the 200 lb gorilla in the room.

200lbs is a relatively scrawny gorilla... (not that it couldn't rip off your arms and beat you to death)

 

[dmccoy1693]

I don't however really agree that Paizo is the industry leader. It's a great company don't get me wrong, but I'm not seeing it push the market in the ways an industry leader should/would.

Like it or not WoTC is doing a LOT right now to drive the market, and make changes that it (one assumes) feels will grow the industry. (And it's about time.)

New product types, new ways of delivering content, new ways to reach out to their consumer base, new ways to make use of their product... Even the idea of taking a look at their product and finding ways to make it easier to get into.

You actually hit upon the a very subtle but important distinction. Wizards is the market leader. No doubt. They drive the market. In the same way that Microsoft drives the PC market. But any major tech person will not agree that Microsft is the industry leader in terms of the overall computing market. That belongs to Google. Apple certainly has its (very important) niches (i.e. iPhone, iPad). Microsoft came out with Windows Tablet like 10 years ago, no one paid attention. Apple announces the iPad and now publishers are standing up to Amazon. That's what a leader does. Others react to what they do. Microsoft use to be like that. Netscape tried to charge for their web browser. Microsoft gave theirs away free. Netscape followed their lead and gave it away free. MS bundled it with their OS, netscape couldn't keep up and folded. Plenty of other companies folded simply because MS announced they were going into the same market as them. But somewhere along the way, other companies stopped caring about what MS did.

Sad to say, but that is where we are at now with Wizards. I am not looking to Wizards books, asking myself "What do players want more of?" I'm doing that with Paizo's books. I also do that with White Wolf book because they evoke the same feeling in me as Paizo's. Seriously. I had several Exalted books open while working on my last PFRPG supplement. I don't see that happening in the future with 4E.

Take a look at the upcoming Gama World:

Not only is it a new direction of using the game rules (quick hits designed to supplement your gaming, not split you in a new direction) but new ways to deliver content to that game as well (the cards.)

From my understanding GW is going to be a board game more than a role playing game. Sure it will have role playing elements, but (if I understand correctly) it will be far more board game based than role playing based. In that respect, Fantasy Flight is a well established leader there. Wizards is playing catch up.

 

[Umbran]

I think the AP approach, subscription based product lines and heavy focus on print+pdf formats are rather innovative.

I'll grant you the adventure path was new - if you don't look at the Slavers, Giants, Drow and Dragonlance modules of 1e too closely. Admittedly, we didn't see a whole lot of that in the 2e era. I'm not too sure a subscription model from folks who had been making magazines full of game content is particularly innovative - smart, yes, but not new.

But even with that, there is specific examples of innovation.

Sure, there's a nice bit of cool new content here and there. But I'd go out on a limb and say Mutants and Masterminds was a whole lot more innovative than Pathfinder, when all's said and done.

 

[Scribble]

Sad to say, but that is where we are at now with Wizards. I am not looking to Wizards books, asking myself "What do players want more of?" I'm doing that with Paizo's books. I also do that with White Wolf book because they evoke the same feeling in me as Paizo's. Seriously. I had several Exalted books open while working on my last PFRPG supplement. I don't see that happening in the future with 4E.

Again I agree and dissagree-

I agree that WoTC let it's position sort of lapse. They sat back and didn't do enough to lead. (Similar to Microsoft in my opinion.)

What they're doing now, though- I think that's the real test.

I also still disagree that Paizo is doing anything to be the industry leader. They're well liked by their fans sure, they're a good company sure... but what are they doing thats changing the industry?

In fact their premise seems to be keeping things at the status quo. Lets keep 3.5 in print. Let's keep our monthly distribution model in effect, lets keep the OGL going... etc. It's a workable business model and keeps them a solid company... But again they're not doing anything to push the industry in new directions.


WoTC is... but again only time will tell if their efforts end up being worthwhile.

from my understanding GW is going to be a board game more than a role playing game. Sure it will have role playing elements, but (if I understand correctly) it will be far more board game based than role playing based. In that respect, Fantasy Flight is a well established leader there. Wizards is playing catch up.

I'd disagree... Everything I've read/heard about it says it's an RPG. It just uses cards instead of dice/tables to determine some random things.

 

[Umbran]

200lbs is a relatively scrawny gorilla... (not that it couldn't rip off your arms and beat you to death)

Well, WotC's the 800 pound gorrilla....

Maybe Paizo's a really big chimpanzee...

White Wolf's the orangutan?

Who gets to be the Capuchin monkey?

 

[Scribble]

Well, WotC's the 800 pound gorrilla....

Maybe Paizo's a really big chimpanzee...

White Wolf's the orangutan?

Who gets to be the Capuchin monkey?

I guess GW gets to be the Bonobo Monkey because of how they supposedly treat their customers?

 

[Shemeska]

I'd recommend having a look at The Great Beyond, which explains the new multiverse.

I would give you some more XP, but the system won't let me.