Pathfinder 1E Is PAIZO becoming the next Wizards?

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Paizo/WoTC

I am very happy with Paizo being the size it is as well. It's the right size to cater to its market niche, which is gamers like me. If it were bigger it would need to pull in a bigger slice of the RPG pie, which would mean that it would have to make Pathfinder appeal to a wider audience, which would mean changes that I wouldn't like.

Ken

 

[carmachu]

When Paizo makes their own game system instead of using an outdated one from another company, maybe they can start approaching WotC's level. Of course, when that happens people will hate on them for the same reasons people hate on WotC ("such and such system has only been out for four decades, going to a new one is now is too soon!" or some other equally ridiculous fanboy bs).

Nothing against Paizo, but everything they have and are producing is something borrowed from someone else(using WotC's game system, Reaper's minis) besides the novels. And if the novels are something printed by a different company other than themselves, they haven't done anything but make themselves a little money and others a lot of money.

Lets be careful now. Considering Mearles was the lead designer of 4e, it sure seems like 4e took a hint from Iron Heros which he also worked on....

 

[carmachu]

Nope. Without Paizo, no Pathfinder. Pretty simple, really.

I wont say WOTC had an equal hand in pathfinder, but if wotc didnt screw around and delay the GSL so mcuh......

 

[dm4hire]

Apparently I called Paizo second rate?

What I did say is that in order to really make it to the top like WotC or to a lesser extent White Wolf, they need their own system, not one from another company. Your comparison is a little off. If D&D equals Windows, then 4e D&D equals Windows 7. Pathfinder would be what would happen if someone took Windows Vista (if it were open source) and tailored it to what they felt Vista should be like. PCs would equal Pen and Paper RPGs, RPGs in general would be computers.

I would say that it's more like WotC changed market strategy and invented Linux, making it open source. Everyone else was invited to play with this "software" to help improve it with the expectation that most would make standard software and not actually clone the OS. If anything Paizo has become the company of choice for the users of this "Open Source OS" that the originator decided to abandon. With Linux the differences have always been what features do I like about this version the most and the one that offers to your taste will win. In essence Paizo are now the Red Hat of the OGL world. The other 3PPs that are following them have decided their efforts are best suited to support what they feel is the better OGL product. As for D&D being Windows I would say it's more Vista itself than 7. You have to remember that the majority of people still used Vista, but it wasn't until Vista came out that the market segmented so publicly and really started to look for options such to Windows, such as Mac and Linux.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I've said this a year-ish ago and I still believe it. Wizards has lost th mantle of Industry Leader and Paizo has deftly picked it up. White Wolf did the same in the 90's when TSR dropped it. Oh sure Wizards will still be the Market Leader for some time, outselling Paizo, but Wizards is no longer the key innovators and shakers of the industry. I look to Paizo for industry leadership, not to Wizards anymore.

Edit: I should state, I am not hating on 4E. I'm in a 4E game and it is fun. But I feel that Paizo is a better leader than Wizards.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Now, i think it is well-known that i like 4e more than Pathfinder, but i normally try not to take part too much in threads like this where game-system-comparing becomes intermixed with preferred-company compared.

Nevertheless, i feel urged to type:

... what innovation? Paizo revised 3.x and they do great adventures. They do their own, distinct and well-designed derivative of D&D, and it´s good to see a strong second party on the market.

But replacing White Wolf in regards to creativity? Wake me when they create a brand-new system or lead roleplaying into new spaces never conquered before.

 

[Scribble]

I've said this a year-ish ago and I still believe it. Wizards has lost th mantle of Industry Leader and Paizo has deftly picked it up. White Wolf did the same in the 90's when TSR dropped it. Oh sure Wizards will still be the Market Leader for some time, outselling Paizo, but Wizards is no longer the key innovators and shakers of the industry. I look to Paizo for industry leadership, not to Wizards anymore.

Edit: I should state, I am not hating on 4E. I'm in a 4E game and it is fun. But I feel that Paizo is a better leader than Wizards.

I'm honestly curious, as maybe I'm missing it, but what are they doing that you feel earns them the title "industry leader?"

 

[dmccoy1693]

... what innovation?

Fluff. Is the idea of fluff innovative, no. If the fluff they come up with innovative, yes. Paizo's material is far more evocative and imaginative than any 4E book I've read. If I had a free 30 minutes (I can only dream of such) and I had to choose to read either a 4E book or a Paizo book, I'd go Paizo every time. Wizards books read (to me) like a text book. I do not get any imaginative elements that I can latch my imagination onto. Paizo's book are rich with such elements.

 

[Umbran]

... but Wizards is no longer the key innovators and shakers of the industry. I look to Paizo for industry leadership, not to Wizards anymore.

I like Pathfinder. But it isn't innovative - it is very explicitly derivative. It looks to me like Paizo's a well-run small business, but as a business they aren't doing anything that the other game shops of comparable size haven't done each in their turn.

 

[Windjammer]

Except that Pathfinder the RPG isn't the company's flagship product. It's Pathfinder the Adventure Path.

Adventure Paths pretty much didn't exist before Shackled City. And once they did, people could only wonder why no one came up with the concept earlier.

Look at Scales of War. Look at 32 page softcovers targeted at players. Heck, look at the first instalment of Scales of War and tell me with a straight eye that it's not a blatant rip off of Paizo's Crown of the Kobold King.

On the other hand. Look at PFRPG's new cavalier, and compare him to the 4E avenger. Look at at-will orisons. Look at ...

You get the gist. We see two companies at work who will copy each other when they deem it appropriate because they are, frankly, working on the very same product, or at least nearly enough so, from a market perspective. And sure, there's innovation here and there in both companies, but it's mostly spread out thin. For God's sake, we're talking about D&D, the soccer mum of the RPG industry, not Jimi Hendrix.

PS. As to my earlier post with the Star Wars license, yeah, I forgot to flag it with an irony smiley as well.