D&D 4E Is Pathfinder Combat As Slow as 4e?

[Umbran]

Ladies and gentlemen,

It seems to me that folks are getting... a tad strident in here. It'd be a cryin' shame if people had to go spend time off for forgetting that they're supposed to act... well, like ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Festivus]

I don't know how you managed that. In my experience, 4E with players that know the rules and their characters well is still much slower than Pathfinder with players that barely know the rules.

If you ever come out to Pasadena, I'd be more than happy to run a game for you to demonstrate.

It really can be fast, you just have to keep people on task. It's the same in 3.x/pathfinder, when the guy playing the sorcerer is pouring over his spell selections things slow down, or the iterative attack guy who rolls the attacks individually, and then the damage separately too. Experienced players learn shortcuts to complete their turn in a rapid fashion (e.g. in 3.x we roll all our attacks and damage at the same time or pick out the spell we intend to cast right after we finish our turn). In 4e, if you are fumbling about on your turn, you usually get a gentle reminder in the form of "Would you like to delay?"

 

[Celtavian]

re

You literally could not be more incorrect.

For starters, there is no "Crowd control" type in MMORPGS.

There are dps, healers, and tanks, yes, but in 4e, it's not nearly as clean cut.

The powers system has nothing at all to do with MMO cooldowns - on the contrary, it is earlier editions that have cooldowns made out to be in minutes or seconds. If anything is closer to MMO cooldowns, it's Pathfinder abilities.

Marks aren't in any way similar to MMO taunts. No, 3.5 abilities that make enemies save vs attacking you are. Once again, if anything is closer to MMOs, it's 3.x.

Expanding levels? Christ, you're really reaching now, aren't you?

In short, stop. You're wrong. About everything.

There were dedicated crowd controllers in Everquest. And a well-played Enchanter or Bard was a thing of beauty to watch. Some of those crowd controllers in EQ could turn an impossible encounter into a win. When you downed the last mob in the train, you knew it was the Enchanter or Bard that made it possible. Awesome fun to watch.


Not so much in WoW.

In WoW crowd control is a secondary ability of many DPS classes. Some do it better than others depending on the situation. There is no dedicated crowd controller in WoW. That is true.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

(comment removed) On the rest, I will agree to disagree with you. All I can say is that I've heard multiple instances of people that have played WoW but don't know anything about D&D, and "It's just like WoW." is their first reaction upon looking at a 4E PHB. The "4E is not like WoW" argument seems pretty hollow.

So you literally have no firsthand experience at all? Your entire argument is built on 1) Some people claiming they're the same maybe and 2) you really wanting it to be the same?

Then take it from someone who does have firsthand experience in playing both games - they aren't alike in the slightest.

"It's just like WoW" in the same way "it's just like Dragon Age" in the same way "It's just like Final Fantasy," in that it's a roleplaying game, and for many people, WoW is the first roleplaying game they think of.

 

[evileeyore]

For starters, there is no "Crowd control" type in MMORPGS.

Everquest has cc. WoW has cc to lesser extent. Star Wars Galaxies had cc.

There are dps, healers, and tanks, yes, but in 4e, it's not nearly as clean cut.

Considering the classes fall into roles and the roles have clear cut definitions... your wrong here too.

The powers system has nothing at all to do with MMO cooldowns - on the contrary, it is earlier editions that have cooldowns made out to be in minutes or seconds. If anything is closer to MMO cooldowns, it's Pathfinder abilities.

Cooldowns have everything to do with balancing how often you get to X power per encounter. In MMOs these are timed by minutes or hours as you are expected to have so many combats per hour.

In 4e it's timed by Encounters and Days as you're supposed to have so many combat encounters per day...

Sound similiar? Because it's identical. MMO timing was based off of PnP gaming.

Marks aren't in any way similar to MMO taunts. No, 3.5 abilities that make enemies save vs attacking you are. Once again, if anything is closer to MMOs, it's 3.x.

"Taunts" in an MMO are designed to influence whom the enemy attacks.
"Marks" in 4e are designed to influence whom the enemy attacks.

It is that simple.

Expanding levels? Gosh, you're really reaching now, aren't you?

Yeah... that one is a bit... exactly like MMOs ripping off Moldavy's D&D. I remember looking forward to our group finally having pooled enough cash to pick up the Masters Rules for our DM so we could go up in levels... kinda like getting the expansion for an MMO is now.

In short, stop. You're wrong. About everything.

In short, MMOs have pretty much copied everything from PnP games. It's no wonder the are so damningly similiar.



Except maybe "Instance Dungeons". But those were in LARPs back in the 80's... so ... yup. MMO companies, complete and total rip-off artists.

 

[The_Gneech]

You literally could not be more incorrect.

For starters, there is no "Crowd control" type in MMORPGS.

Er ... what? I only play one MMO (LotRO), and both the Burglar and Loremaster classes are explicitly referred to as "crowd control".

The powers system has nothing at all to do with MMO cooldowns - on the contrary, it is earlier editions that have cooldowns made out to be in minutes or seconds. If anything is closer to MMO cooldowns, it's Pathfinder abilities.

With the possible exception of breath weapons, I don't recall that much in the way of "cooldown" mechanics in any version of D&D. Most abilities have (number) / (period) mechanics, whether it's uses per day or uses per encounter. I suppose you could say 4E's "recharge" mechanic is vaguely like a cooldown. Cooldown is an annoying mechanic at the tabletop because it's yet another thing to keep track of ... 4E's "recharge" is one of the places it did improve on the 3.x ruleset.

Marks aren't in any way similar to MMO taunts. No, 3.5 abilities that make enemies save vs attacking you are. Once again, if anything is closer to MMOs, it's 3.x.

Okay, this flat out makes no sense to me. Marks are there to get creatures to attack you instead of your allies. They are exactly like taunts in their purpose, if not their implementation. It's true that the Knight's challenge in 3.x (and the Star Wars Saga Edition talents along the same lines) are closer to taunts mechanically -- but in terms of the function they are identical.

In any case!

This whole snit over which system is more MMO-ish is kind of pointless, considering that MMOs are descendants of RPGs anyway. What makes a good tabletop RPG is the ability to interact with the GM and have unique and very personal adventures that go beyond "kill X number of Y" and "click quest item A in location B."

If you're going to bash 4E for being "too gamey" (and I think it's a fair criticism), MMO-like rules constructions are not the real problem. The real problem is the way characters are defined as a bucket of powers that don't have a real meaning "in the game world" and the whole "delve" format, which discourages any activity other than button-pushing combat.

MMO-inspired mechanics such as taunts are not inherently bad things; if you play a fighter-as-meatshield sort of character a taunt is a very nifty ability. MMO-inspired adventure design, on the other hand, needlessly throws away everything that's good about tabletop gaming without gaining anything that's good about computer gaming.

-The Gneech

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Everquest has cc. WoW has cc to lesser extent. Star Wars Galaxies had cc.

There is a difference between "Having crowd control" and "having a set archtype set up specifically for crowd control."

WoW doesn't have a Controller archtype. Quite frankly, most classes in WoW have a style of crowd control.

Considering the classes fall into roles and the roles have clear cut definitions... your wrong here too.

No, they don't.

Warriors can be tanks...or PvE DPS, or PvP DPS. Paladins can be tanks...or healers...or DPS. Clerics can be healers or DPS.

[quote[Cooldowns have everything to do with balancing how often you get to X power per encounter. In MMOs these are timed by minutes or hours as you are expected to have so many combats per hour.

In 4e it's timed by Encounters and Days as you're supposed to have so many combat encounters per day...

Sound similiar? Because it's identical. MMO timing was based off of PnP gaming.[/quote]

"You are meant to have four combats a day"

Sound familiar? That's 3e and Pathfinder.

Once again, MMO cooldowns are based off in game time. 3.x cooldowns are based off in game time.

"Taunts" in an MMO are designed to influence whom the enemy attacks.
"Marks" in 4e are designed to influence whom the enemy attacks.

It is that simple.

No, it isn't. Marks and taunts work entirely different.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Er ... what? I only play one MMO (LotRO), and both the Burglar and Loremaster classes are explicitly referred to as "crowd control".

I have admittingly not played LotRO, but I would not be surprised if they, like WoW, did not have a set "crowd control" archtype, but rather if most classes had a form of crowd control.

Okay, this flat out makes no sense to me. Marks are there to get creatures to attack you instead of your allies. They are exactly like taunts in their purpose, if not their implementation. It's true that the Knight's challenge in 3.x (and the Star Wars Saga Edition talents along the same lines) are closer to taunts mechanically -- but in terms of the function they are identical.

No, they aren't. Argh.

MMO mechanics 101.

Taunts work in two ways: One, it causes the monster to immidiately attack you and only you if it succeeds (There were a few 3.5 classes that had a vs will save effect to do the same, 4e has no such mechanic). Two, monsters have a "threat" stat for each player, and whatever player has the highest "threat" is what the monsters go after. The taunt power causes the class to raise their threat considerably, ensuring they remain on top. Again, there is no 4e mechanic like that.

Marks work by giving your enemies disincentives to fight others. They can still ignore you. In fact, that was one of the big problems with the Battlemind class, that he just wasn't sticky enough, and monsters could just saunter right past him. 4e marks are in no way similar to MMO taunts.

If you're going to bash 4E for being "too gamey" (and I think it's a fair criticism), MMO-like rules constructions are not the real problem. The real problem is the way characters are defined as a bucket of powers that don't have a real meaning "in the game world" and the whole "delve" format, which discourages any activity other than button-pushing combat.

How is any edition of D&D any different?

In every edition of D&D from the very starts, classes have been defined as a bucket of powers. In 3.5 fighters are "gets a feat every other level, has high BAB, high HD, high fort." There is no special power that lets you roleplay a fighter in 3.5 different from 4e. What about rogues? What unique "roleplay" power does a rogue get that isn't in 4e? Is it the ability to pick pockets and disarm traps? Because they have that in both editions. Is it sneaking around? That's in both editions, too.

This is a non-argument, because there is nothing in 4e that causes you to roleplay less. "I use my power" is no less imaginative then "I full attack."

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Double post

 

[Plane Sailing]

ProfessorCirno,

You appear to be on one side of an argument and everyone else is on a different side. Probably worth stepping away from the issue at this point since neither side is going to convince the other, both have had their say and I don't think anyone is going to change their mind.

Thanks