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D&D 4E Is Pathfinder Combat As Slow as 4e?

The DM doesn't have to make sure to track each ongoing condition with colored coded markers to designate marked, slowed, combat advantage, or any of the numerous round to round conditions that 4E grants from powers. That aspect that slows down 4E combat isn't there.

Lost of great insights from this post -- thanks Celtavian!

In particular, I'm glad to see that with Pathfinder I have the option to avoid some of the 4e bookkeeping like condition markers.

On another note, it it just me, or does 4e have a tendency to tie you to a battlemat or dungeon tiles? Do as many people play 4e without minis and a battlemat? Or maybe it's the crowd that plays 4e (newbies coming from a MMO background) rather than the rules itself. Pathfinder seems to lend itself to ditching the battlemat.
 

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I've been interested in trying out Pathfinder. I'm experienced with fast combat games like 0e and 1e D&D, Savage Worlds, etc.

This post gave me pause though:
Destination Unknown: I broke up with 4e this morning.

I tried 4e once at a D&D gameday. Combat took 40 minutes for one encounter and seemed to me to be monotonous. Maybe it was because I was a newbie and had to be couched on what to do? In any case, I am wondering if combat in Pathfinder is about the same as 4e, or if it is somehow different, somehow faster or more interesting.

Thoughts?

-- Dwilimir

In response to your question, I have to say "Absolutely not!" 4E combat is designed to be very slow and tactical. The monsters have gobs of hit points (I guess to prevent "swinginess") and the PC's can expect to miss about half the time and do relatively little damage to the monsters when they do hit. It only gets worse as you go up in level. I've seen paragon encounters take about 4 hours to complete. 4E combat does tend to get ridiculously monotonous and slow. That's just the way it is. I have played a good deal of both 4E and Pathfinder, and a low level 4E combat can easily take an hour and half to complete, while you can expect a low level Pathfinder encounter to take 30 to 40 minutes (sometimes less) to complete. If you want to play a game with relatively short combats, you do not want to play 4E, unless you want to do some serious houseruling (like halving monster hit points and upping their damage a bit to keep it challenging).
 

In particular, I'm glad to see that with Pathfinder I have the option to avoid some of the 4e bookkeeping like condition markers.

Pathfinder does have conditions and spell effects that you'll want to keep track of. The main difference is they tend to persist longer (which I find makes them easier to learn to use). They're usually multiple rounds in duration rather than condition on/condition off flickers that are such a hassle to apply in 4e. I would recommend getting a small white board to jot down applicable conditions and count down durations on it so that all the players can see them and remember to use them as needed. Relieves some of the DM burden...
 

Lost of great insights from this post -- thanks Celtavian!

In particular, I'm glad to see that with Pathfinder I have the option to avoid some of the 4e bookkeeping like condition markers.

On another note, it it just me, or does 4e have a tendency to tie you to a battlemat or dungeon tiles? Do as many people play 4e without minis and a battlemat? Or maybe it's the crowd that plays 4e (newbies coming from a MMO background) rather than the rules itself. Pathfinder seems to lend itself to ditching the battlemat.

Well as I have mentioned in Pathfinder, 3e and other games we just do a quick dirty hand drawn map when needed. When we played 4e off and on for a bit we tried to do that but finally gave up and used the battlemat and mini's as it just became to confusing with out using them. Least that was our experience.
 

Reading this my mind screams that you are trying to play a computer game with pen and paper. All these constantly changing short duration bonuses being created by friend and foe can be easily tracked in the background by a computer, the same cannot be said for people playing this on paper.

Makes me wonder how well the system would work in a MMORPG style format.

Well it seems pretty clear that many of 4E's mechanics and terms are very similar to WoW. 4E was clearly designed to emulate a MMORPG to some degree, possibly to appeal to those that play MMORPG's. In the early days of 4E marketing, a lot of designers talked a lot about WOW, so I think it's safe to say that it heavily influenced some of the designers decisions about 4E's mechanics. I've even heard of people on several occasions that didn't know anything about D&D but played WoW, and after they looked at a 4E PHB they said something like "It's just like WoW." without any prompting. The people that say 4E isn't like WoW seem to be somewhat self-deluded.
 

Well it seems pretty clear that many of 4E's mechanics and terms are very similar to WoW. 4E was clearly designed to emulate a MMORPG to some degree, possibly to appeal to those that play MMORPG's. In the early days of 4E marketing, a lot of designers talked a lot about WOW, so I think it's safe to say that it heavily influenced some of the designers decisions about 4E's mechanics. I've even heard of people on several occasions that didn't know anything about D&D but played WoW, and after they looked at a 4E PHB they said something like "It's just like WoW." without any prompting. The people that say 4E isn't like WoW seem to be somewhat self-deluded.

Well that is all well and good but not everything translates. Things like auras are done in the background in WoW by the computer and I never even noticed them. I got the buff for this or that race or class and it figured in without me being the wiser.

On paper its a whole different story. Auras can be used up, a player can leave the effective range, and a bunch of other book keeping type crap that doesnt make the game more fun and slows it down.

Makes me glad I read through the rules some, realized so much of the variety had been trashed in the races and classes, and left quickly.
 



Well that is all well and good but not everything translates. Things like auras are done in the background in WoW by the computer and I never even noticed them. I got the buff for this or that race or class and it figured in without me being the wiser.

On paper its a whole different story. Auras can be used up, a player can leave the effective range, and a bunch of other book keeping type crap that doesnt make the game more fun and slows it down.

Makes me glad I read through the rules some, realized so much of the variety had been trashed in the races and classes, and left quickly.

Obviously, you can't translate a lot of things directly, but it seems they did as much as they could to make 4e like a MMORPG. They have the clearly defined roles: striker=dps, defender=tank, leader=healer, controller=crowd control that are taken straight from MMORPG's. 4E has marks from defenders to mimic drawing aggro. The at-will, encounter, daily system of powers mimics cooldowns in a MMORPG. Even expanding the standard 20 levels to 30 is bringing the game closer to WoW.
 

This isn't a normal D&D combat, it's a freaking battle! I don't even think 3 hours was bad, as this was certainly the biggest event that evening. How did it work out?

If I had to do something like that I would only roll dice for the creatures the PCs engage and simply describe the flow of battle for everything else.

This sounds full of awesome!

I take it that somewhat more detailed description is needed :)

Here we go...

First of all, this is middle phase of campaign arc set in Scarred Lands setting, during which the characters (12-14th levels) are in the process of assembling information on secret origins of Tadhg Mhic Draodoir (party member). Having just signed permits allowing them to act as Representatives of Free-City State of Hollowfaust, they needed a job in order to improve their standing with Draodoir Foundation and subsequently gain further access to vital data.

The job itself was originally assembled as multistage encounter for Magus playtest (Magus - beta version of a new base class set to appear in Ultimate Magic). However, due to time constraints, the playtest was delayed and the encounter was run without Magus character.

Credits:
The lich and zombie giants, originally conceived by Justin Holloway in The Druid and the Lich.
Wights - Caer Wights variant from Pathfinder Bestiary, equipped with longbows (also available online in Pathfinder PRD).
Erinyes and Barbazu devils - Pathfinder Bestiary (also available online in Pathfinder PRD).
Something wicked - Book of Monster Templates by Rite Publishing, with CR adjusted by +3 to better reflect actual creature strength (the book is fine, however I find quite a few templates in dire need of adjusting upwards)

Issue of Necromancer HD control limit:
The bad guy appears to control large number of undead. How is it possible? The answer: he does not. He issues a command, and zombies due to IQ of "-" are simply following the command to the letter. He assumes command of the next batch of undead and issues next command. The final group of zombie giants is told to haul their brethren while following avantgarde. And so they do.
The wights, on the other hand, are intelligent and do what they are told. They are CE, of course, so they are not the most reliable of soldiers. Still they do not lack self-preservation instinct.

What about the devils?
Summoned and bargained with by lich superiors in Glivid Autel. They are essentially mercenaries, who in return for getting to play with living prisoners, are to serve 3 weeks out of four in the field.

Encounter CRs:
- Zombie Giants are Easy
- Wights are Easy to Average (due to good range attack)
- Lich and his retinue - Challenging
- all of these are to happen separately (Zombie Giants attack is a feint, and a delayed feint at that, while Wights are optional)

The encounter initial setup was as follows:
1. Hook #1: The characters join archaeologist party as escorts/bodyguards.
2. Hook #2: The characters are requested to participate in rescue mission for said archaeologists.
The chief difference is that in the former case opponents are better prepared to deal with characters, and in the latter the mayhem already started, archaeologists are scattered and hurt, and the "something wicked" creature is on the verge of escaping.

The story version of the events:

1. The characters play along with hook #1, especially since Tadhg's condition is deteriorating. They split into two groups, the first escorts archaeologists to the edge of Hornsaw, where the excavations are to take place, the latter is to research some spells and teleport in later the same day.

2. The next two days pass uneventfully. The archaeologists map the area and begin to tentatively search ruins of a villa. Tadhg condition stabilizes. Guillermo (party member) experiences two vivid dreams of black feathers falling from the sky during night time.

Important side note: Hornsaw Forest isn't the place you want visit on a sunny day. It's dark, twisted and poisoned by essence of a fallen titan snake-mother Mormo. It houses a city of necromancer renegades from Society of Immortals. Finally it is a home to Hornsaw Unicorn.

Important side note #2: The dreams are a warning from character's divine patron that they have been found by a blackwinged humanoid creature patrolling the area during night time. On the third day the character finds an actual, real feather. Despite all of these, he is hesitant to mention this to other players, and on the last day the other players are not interested in the feather. The real feather was dropped by the wing owner to provide focus for scrying the camp activities.

3. On the third day the archaeologists find entrance to the cellar. They strongly suspect that the items sold recently in Hollowfaust were found in the cellar. The villa's function is reevaluated... the archaeologists are beginning to suspect that the original vine plantation was converted during Titanswar to necropolis.
Unfortunately, the explorers of the cellars fail to notice failing wards and destroy them. This results in a blast of negative energy in a 800' radius.

4. Blast results are devastating - unhallow effect in 800' radius, bones from shallow graves assemble into random (vaguely humanoid) shapes (the effect is too quick to produce full fledged aggressive zombies and skeletons, however the undead are difficult to navigate around and respond with violence if interacted with). This also convinces hostile force to hasten attack plans (the opponents were originally intending to attack at night time).

5. Commander of undead forces uses all his Command Undead uses to direct all of his zombie giants to move forward and kill all living beings. His snipers teleport into positions. The wight detachment moves (hustle) to take position beyond next hill to intercept fleeing opponents. Finally, the commander and his retinue circle heroes' campsite beyond range in order to take position opposite to the giants.

6. Several minutes later the characters are a bit confused as to the nature of spontaneous unearthing of passive undead. They decide to teleport a few students away (4 out of 8 total, leaving servants and professor for later).
The later does not happen as appearance of giant zombies some 300 feet away captures their attention.
The casters take position on the upper floor (with visibility restricted to 90-degree cone toward zombie giants), the rest either hide on ground floor or guard the entrance to the tower (entrance faces in opposite direction, it is blocked by Hollowfaustian zombies).

7. Flying casters engage zombies with tentative fireballs. Unfortunately for players, commander of the undead is also in position and so he unleashes maximized fireball right in a middle of ground floor. This results in instant incineration of students and servants (no chance to survive even with a successful save) and professor (failed save). The PCs are either unscathed or suffer minor burns. One of the flying casters is almost killed by snipers.

8. Barbarian PC charges into undead commander (80 feet charge, his immense strength allowing him to scatter feeble undead) and does almost 80 points of damage. The Barbarian PC finds that commander was not alone - the invisibility sphere shielded no fewer than six bearded devils (3 original, 3 summoned prior to unleashing the fireball).

9. The remaining characters either focus on zombie giants, snipers (Hold Monster), saving grievously hurt caster or try to approach barbarian.

10. Opponents' turn. All six devils slash the Barbarian... 50% strikes hit dealing over 140 points of damage. The commander assesses the situation and blasts Barbarian with Scorching Ray and Quickened Magic Missile. The Barbarian is still standing, bleeding heavily.
The zombie giants continue to lumber toward the tower.
The snipers experience problems (Erinyes devils) - failed saves Hold Monster and misses.

11. PCs' turn. Barbarian PCs bleeds to death (i.e. bleeding damage makes him fall unconscious, which in turn ends rage, which in turn cancels rage CON bonus, which brings the character far into negatives). Paladin PC gets to charge the lich and... misses. Sorcerer PC tries to attack the lich, but his spell fails to account for the target being immune (they were not aware of whom they were dealing with). Cleric PC blasts all devils with Holy Word (and banishes them all).
Wizard PC (Tadhg) uses Command Undead to make zombie giants to attack each other - since the zombie giants were not controlled, this is sufficient to deal with the problem of lumbering horde.

12. The wights are not participating in combat (and they are not too keen to abandon their position). They may at further stage.

13. The furious clash between cleric, paladin and the lich (whose status is finally revealed) results in lich blasting opponents with Cloudkill and using Dimension Door to hide himself in the tower (formerly occupied by PCs, currently covered by Cloudkill).

14. The characters deal with Erinyes, the lich secretly recuperates.

15. The lich blasts Sorcerer PC with another spell, and then, when all PCs converge on him, uses Circle of Death. He is quite surprised that no one succumbs to his spell. The paladin ends the fight with a smite.

End of the primary part of the encounter. The characters are not aware of Wight detachment yet. The something wicked is not coming out... yet.

Several things I forgot to mention:
The stuff described above took roughly 3 hours to run, mostly due to various parties maneuvering. We used Chessex Megamat to gauge distances, however it was not sufficient to cover all areas. There were only minis for PCs and notable NPC, various tokens for other monsters - lack of other accessories was intentional as we had to rotate the mat (virtually) to reflect changes to the scene (casters and Erinyes devils were very mobile).

Main baddie, the lich, was adjusted a little to fit campaign theme (needed one more HD, too).

The party consists of Barbarian 12 (currently 13), Cleric 13 (currently 14), Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer variant 13, Paladin 13, Sorcerer 13, Bard/Wizard 14.

Regards,
Ruemere
 
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