Is Rapid Shot more powerful than Two-Weapon Fighting?

[Kai Lord]

Okay, let's disect this.

A ranger gets 3 feats at first level. His first level feat, and Ambi/TWF. 4 if he's human.

A fighter gets 2 feats at first level. 3 if he's human.

Yes, a fighter could spend his 2 feats on Ambi/TWF, but that's all of his feats. A ranger gets them FOR FREE.

Now, are you going to tell me trading 2 feats for 1 feat is overpowering?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. And you forgot Track. So Rangers get four feats at 1st level, five if they're human. I'm talking about trading one feat for one feat.

 

[Kai Lord]

Jeremy's on the boards. This should get interesting.

 

[Xarlen]

Kai, my response was to Elder Basilisk.

He's saying it's overpowering to allow Rangers to have Rapid Fire instead of Ambi/TWF.

 

[Kai Lord]

Kai, my response was to Elder Basilisk.

He's saying it's overpowering to allow Rangers to have Rapid Fire instead of Ambi/TWF.

Agreed, but what I'm talking about is taking Rapid Shot instead of TWF, on a 1-for-1 trade. Customization is allowed under the Core Rules, and I'm not talking about something ambiguous like trading a feat for lay on hands or evasion. We're talking another feat!

If that's unbalancing then I guess the character who chose Weapon Focus: Longbow is unbalanced compared to the character who chose Weapon Focus: Dagger. Its not like I'm suggesting giving him a feat he doesn't meet the prereqs for.

 

[silvertable81]

IMHO This thread has been beaten, but I'll put in my 15 cents.
If a trade is in order, Ambidexterity and TWF, together do the same thing as Rapid shot.
Those feats alone should trade evenly. Forget the Point blank Shot, look at the monk's virtual feats, he doesn't need no stinkin' prereqs.
As to the number of feats a fighter gets at first level, versus the ranger, Fighter gets one Character, one fighter, two weapon (simple and martial) and three armor (light, medium, heavy) 7 (8 if human)

 

[Veldrane]

Guys we're talking of a grown up character, so let's try to see it in perspective, instead of the "ohh, they're two free feats @ lvl one"..

Ambi & TWF:

• deals more damage from the 8th-10th level, expecially when Improved Critical and Keen Weapons go in (the bow is only one), and if the char has one level of Barb.
• They need two magical weapon, true, but can have two enhancements, while the bow can have just one (arrows too, ok, but mainly GMW do the job).
• They are suited from melee, and you'll admit 90% of the encounters are in melee range after one round or two.
• They have defensive stances (Defending weapon, Off hand parry, Twin Sword Style, Mithral Buckler anyone?).
• They can improve up to three attacks with the off hand (four for the Tempest), with just feats (Improved TWF, Greater TWF).
• You have also many many feats to choose from to complement your ability (all the melee feats)

Rapid Shot:

• Needs you to have two stats high in order to attack and inflict damage (TWF, as melee weapons, just one)
• The bow is only 20/x3 and you cannot change it. The bow can be at best Mighty (+4), and you cannot change it.
• The bow cannot be used in melee (AoOs) until you enter a PrC
• When an enemy close in, you're in trouble, since your AC is surely lower than a TWFighter
• You can enchant only the bow (you could the arrows too, but, realistically, noone do it due to high cost)
• You can have only Improved Rapid Shot (no more -2 to RS attacks, from DragonMag.), Manyshot (ELH), and a couple other feats far less useful than the melee ones

I'm not here to say that the Ranged Fighter is underpowered, just that he gains power with PrCs (a total of four, though the melee one has.. ..mmm.. ..how many to choose from? ),
but to say that, IMHO, it's not that wrong to let a Ranger trade his virtual feats for other two virtual feats, maybe a bit more powerful @ lvl 1, still balanced from a couple levels later on...

 

[Umbran]

Hmm.

The ranger's TWF and Ambidexterity are not full feats. They are limited by armor. If you are goig to swap the feats one-for-one, it'd only bve fair to keep that restriction.

 

[Epametheus]

A few things to keep in mind:

1) Ambidexterity and Two-weapon Fighting are both useless by themselves; you don't really get anything out having just one of these. You have to have both of these feats for them to mean anything.

2) Point-blank Shot and Rapid Shot are feats that stand on their own, though; actually, if people didn't have to take Point-blank to get it, they'd probably go straight for Rapid. However, Point-blank shot's bonuses aren't bad to have.

3) Ranger's TWF/Ambi are restricted: only when wearing light armor or none, and it doesn't apply to double weapons. A fighter who spends the feats to buy it gets the advantage of being able to use it while wearing anything, and with whatever the hell he wants to use. As a side note, the fighter with TWF does need to have 2 high stats -- Str so that he can actually hit things, and Dex so that he can take Ambidexterity in the first place.

4) Trading both Ambidexterity AND two-weapon fighting for rapid shot sounds reasonable to me; TWF + Ambi = Rapid Shot. Taking just one of those feats is fairly inferior to having Rapidshot.

5) As a side note, you could combine Point-blank Shot, Ambidexterity, and Rapid Shot if you used Repeating Crossbows, though you'd have a -8 penalty to all of your attacks. I've seen a lot of archers who can't miss stuff like the Tarrasque unless they roll a 1, so that's actually feasible, if kinda pointless.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I see nothing in that section that suggests trading two feats for one. The consensus seems to be that Two-Weapon Fighting is pretty much equivalent with Rapid Shot, so unless someone provides a compelling case why I should change my mind (and I'd love to hear it, that's why I asked), I'm just going to swap out TWF.

Remember that the ranger does not really have those feats, he fights with two weapons as if he had them, if he is wearing light or no armor. Nor can he wield double weapons using this class ability. So you can't really swap a feat that he does not have in the first place. I was suggesting giving up the class ability for one real feat. That seems to fit your character.

EDIT: I do, however, appreciate you pointing out that page reference since its core, and not listed as "variant". Now I can rest assured that my customization isn't even a house rule, which is always nice for character "credibility," for lack of a better term.

That's why I referenced it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Guys we're talking of a grown up character, so let's try to see it in perspective, instead of the "ohh, they're two free feats @ lvl one"..

Ambi & TWF:

• deals more damage from the 8th-10th level, expecially when Improved Critical and Keen Weapons go in (the bow is only one), and if the char has one level of Barb.

Improved critical and keen are boons for the bow wielder rather than the two weapon fighter. An archer with Improved Critical composite longbow and a +1 keen shock composite longbow (approx 19k gp) has Attacks AB-2/AB-2/AB-7, etc. with a threat range of 18-20/x3 for 1d8+1+1d6+str+other

A two weapon fighter has to choose either twin shortsword, twin handaxe, or a double weapon in order to get the same mileage out of Improved critical (otherwise, the TWF character needs to spend two feats for the benefit the archer gets with one).

Even then, the character needs to spend more resources in order to have equivalent weapons--for example in order to have similar damage and crit qualities to the archer, the TWF character needs two Keen energy weapons. Two Keen Flaming shortswords cost approximately 37k gp. And even then attacks at AB-2 and AB -7 for (usually) 1d6+1+1d6+str+other 15-20/x2 and (assuming improved TWF which has to compete with improved critical for the 8th/9th level feat choice) AB-2 and AB-7 for 1d6+1+1d6+1/2 str +other 15-20/x2

Now babarian rage often takes the character's strength above 18 so this is a definite advantage to the TWF character. (As is the presence of Improved TWF).

• They need two magical weapon, true, but can have two enhancements, while the bow can have just one (arrows too, ok, but mainly GMW do the job).

This is a disadvantage vis a vis archers and not an advantage (as it is vis a vis wielders of two handed weapons) since the archer gets an extra attack with the bow which only needs one enchantment. In order to have equal quality primary and secondary attacks, the TWF character needs to spend twice as much money as the archer.

• They are suited from melee, and you'll admit 90% of the encounters are in melee range after one round or two.

This is true of the party, not the individual character. In a balanced party, an archer will not typically end up in melee any more than the wizard does. Other characters protect the archer and the wizard in order to enable them to do their jobs.

• They have defensive stances (Defending weapon, Off hand parry, Twin Sword Style, Mithral Buckler anyone?).
• They can improve up to three attacks with the off hand (four for the Tempest), with just feats (Improved TWF, Greater TWF).
• You have also many many feats to choose from to complement your ability (all the melee feats)

I believe that I pointed this out myself when I noted that TWF characters have somewhere to go after TWF/Ambidex but archers don't have as many advantageous feats available to them.

It's worth pointing out that mithral bucklers (or just plain masterwork bucklers) are even more advantageous for archers than for TWF characters though.

Rapid Shot:

• Needs you to have two stats high in order to attack and inflict damage (TWF, as melee weapons, just one)

Unless you actually take the feats rather than taking a ranger level. In that case, TWF requires the exact same high stats since Ambidex has a prerequisite dex of 15+.

It's also worth noting that con is also a de facto prerequisite stat for a TWF character in order to deal with the damage being dished out by his melee opponents. Con is much more optional for archers who usually do not take the same kind of punishment as melee fighters.

• The bow is only 20/x3 and you cannot change it. The bow can be at best Mighty (+4), and you cannot change it.

Mighty [+4] is a limit but 20/x3 isn't. Bows can be keen and you can take improved critical with a bow. For what it's worth, 20/x3 is just as good a crit range as most of the weapons TWF characters use. Handaxe: 20/x3, shortsword 19-20/x2 (mathematically equivalent), doublesword 19-20/x2, double axe 20/x3. You can do as much to change the bow as you can any of those. (Actually a good deal more since there seem to be a lot of prestige classes which change a bow's crit range and multiplier but Weapon Master is the only one I know of for melee weapons (and Weapon Master is very hard for a TWF character to qualify for)).

• The bow cannot be used in melee (AoOs) until you enter a PrC
• When an enemy close in, you're in trouble, since your AC is surely lower than a TWFighter

Only because archer characters are typically constructed without a thought for defense. Since their weapons cost less money (they only need to buy one primary weapon) and they have almost all the same defensive options open to them and usually have a higher dexterity than TWF characters, archers actually have a higher potential AC than most TWF characters (the shield expert/bastard sword+spiked shield character type excepted).

• You can enchant only the bow (you could the arrows too, but, realistically, noone do it due to high cost)
• You can have only Improved Rapid Shot (no more -2 to RS attacks, from DragonMag.), Manyshot (ELH), and a couple other feats far less useful than the melee ones

I'm not here to say that the Ranged Fighter is underpowered, just that he gains power with PrCs (a total of four, though the melee one has.. ..mmm.. ..how many to choose from? ),
but to say that, IMHO, it's not that wrong to let a Ranger trade his virtual feats for other two virtual feats, maybe a bit more powerful @ lvl 1, still balanced from a couple levels later on...

And I'm not saying that ranged fighters are overpowered or that TWF is underpowered but I am saying that your analysis is off in several significant ways.

WRT the original question, I think it is unbalancing to permit ranger characters to swap feats because it takes the ranger from being the multiclass of choice for people who want to have the two weapon fighting feats on the cheap to being the 1 level multiclass of choice for any character who wants either a TWF or an Archery focus. Heck, why not allow ambi/twf to be exchanged for weapon focus as well? That way, one level of ranger would be the powergaming imperative for any character who wanted to focus in any kind of armed combat.