Is Resource Management “Fun?”
- Thread starter JohnSnow
- Start date
Symbolic sense and/or puns. I mean, the material component for ESP/detect thoughts is 1 cp – literally a penny for your thoughts. And silent image is some wool cloth, because you're either about to pull the wool over someone's eyes or fleece them.
It was mainly a fighter thing. Basically, instead of fighters specializing in a weapon by getting a numerical bonus when fighting with that weapon, they would specialize by taking powers that gained additional benefits with that type of weapon.
Right, I get that, it's just, I played a few Fighters in 4e, and I don't recall ever selecting a Power for it's cool weapon type bonus, though obviously some did exist. Some of this was apparently to support the other Fighter builds, but I don't recall seeing those used as often as the vanilla version.
I'm pretty sure Invigorating was useful, but people in my area apparently didn't think it was as cool as say, the Warden.
The best d20 take on weapon choice that mattered was Fantasy Craft, and it achieved it with weapon hierarchies. Melee weapons were either Edged or Blunt, and that was the level you took proficiency in them.
After that, the game presented 6 subcategories, like Axes, Fencing Blades, Knives, Swords, Greatswords, Polearms and Spears, all of which contained at least 5 weapons, all of which had different properties. Feats and other abilities focused on the subcategory, so you had Axe Basics, Axe Mastery and Axe Expertise. Each feat was made up of a passive bonus when using those weapons, and an active "trick" that you could use to modify a combat action, and usually 1 stance somewhere in there, all of which applied to any weapon in the set.
The most iconic is probably Knife Basics, which gave you the ability "all knives on your person are considered armed at all times" which meant you were absolutely going to carry every knife you found, particularly a main gauche, as it provided a defensive bonus when armed.
This then was combined with an extensive weapon customization system, that allowed you to craft weaponry with yet more modifiers.
After that, the game presented 6 subcategories, like Axes, Fencing Blades, Knives, Swords, Greatswords, Polearms and Spears, all of which contained at least 5 weapons, all of which had different properties. Feats and other abilities focused on the subcategory, so you had Axe Basics, Axe Mastery and Axe Expertise. Each feat was made up of a passive bonus when using those weapons, and an active "trick" that you could use to modify a combat action, and usually 1 stance somewhere in there, all of which applied to any weapon in the set.
The most iconic is probably Knife Basics, which gave you the ability "all knives on your person are considered armed at all times" which meant you were absolutely going to carry every knife you found, particularly a main gauche, as it provided a defensive bonus when armed.
This then was combined with an extensive weapon customization system, that allowed you to craft weaponry with yet more modifiers.
rmcoen
Explorer
Yes, this is what martials should have, which would compare to casters. You have your preferred spells, and different ones for different situations; I have my preferred weapons, and also different ones for different situations!
I had a 2e dwarf rogue that specialized in TWF with his shortswords... but he carried "Grandpa's Axe" on his back at all times, for dealing with ogres, giants, and other Large creatures. He sucked with it, but mechanically, it did offer a d12 Knockdown die that came in handy a few times. It worked. In 5e, meh, 2d6 vs. 1d12, no reason to use the axe except flavor.
I had a 2e dwarf rogue that specialized in TWF with his shortswords... but he carried "Grandpa's Axe" on his back at all times, for dealing with ogres, giants, and other Large creatures. He sucked with it, but mechanically, it did offer a d12 Knockdown die that came in handy a few times. It worked. In 5e, meh, 2d6 vs. 1d12, no reason to use the axe except flavor.
There were a few oddities in FC though. Weapons that inflicted other types of damage, like Stress, didn't really synergize with what other characters were doing, and then you had wacky things too (I want to say Skeletons were immune to hammers? I might be remembering that wrong).
Eh, yes and no. Stress/Subdual inflicted the Fatigued/Shaken condition (you rolled a saving through vs. the damage, and if you failed your damage total reset and you increased your grade of the condition), which killed you if they got over 5, but inflicted pretty severe mounting penalties on their own, and that was only relevant for "special" foes. "Standard" foes, which are sort of like 4e minion, but slightly hardier, treat all damage the same anyway.
Stress damage was super rare on weapons though, that was usually more about intimidation/insults/supernatural fear.
Skeleton thing was a real mistake though (undead are immune to subdual damage as a part of the creature type), discussion on the old FC forums generally agreed the template should have had a trait that converted any subdual damage into lethal damage.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Level Up has a lot more weapon properties, and I added a bunch in my homebrew. My consolidated equipment guide is off the proverbial hook!
One of my favorite games of all time is DayZ. Its at times described as a walking simulator, and for good reason, as you do in fact spend a lot of time walking and running around with nothing much happening.
And part of the gameplay loop is looting; you need to get stuff to survive and stuff to help you get other stuff you need to survive, and all of it has limited usage, meaning you can't just get one and call it a day.
So you're always running around, looting stuff, and repeating constantly, forever.
But that isn't all there is to the game and how it plays out, because between the atmosphere of the game and the simple fragility of life, those long bouts of basically nothing contribute to the relatively short bouts of a whole of something being incredibly intense.
Running into another Survivor in DayZ, or triggering a zombie horde or a pack of wolves, is no laughing matter, even when you're fully geared. In fact, even a person whose fully decked out in military gear has to be wary of approaching unknown bambis, players who just spawned, because all they strictly need to end your life is a can of beans to beat you to death with.
In that game, resource management largely serves the purpose of filling out the gameplay inbetween these moments of intense violence and terror, and it goes fairly deep; you even have to upkeep your shoes, less you have to run barefoot, putting you at risk of cutting yourself and bleeding out.
In TTRPGs, specifically of the DND variety, the equivalent of those intense moments happen much more frequently in most games, even ones that attempt a more gritty take. As a result, the amount of resource management thats appropriate needs to be balanced with that frequency in mind, otherwise its just tedium.
But the other issue tends to be that of bloat that drags the game out, separately from tedious elements.
Counting arrows for instance tends to be well balanced for this in say early 5E. But as you get to later levels, and enemy HP starts to baloon, counting the arrows starts to get tedious because the arrows basically stay the same and your damage, if it goes up at all on average, doesn't always keep up with the amount of damage that needs to be put out.
In DayZ, this isn't much of a problem. Some guns are super weak and basically worthless outside of your first hour or so alive, but most of them are relatively equally lethal against all targets. Player skill tends to matter more than having bigger numbers.
So back in DND land, while you can push the game to be more player skill oriented and address the issue that way, but I think you can also address it going the other way. Using the arrow example, you could set it up to where arrows as a resource have more depth. Different types, effects, and quantities that one can count on having. These arrows would be differentiated from standard ones, and counted. Whereas standard arrows, might be effectively infinite; especially in 5e where there is no real crafting for them and the game leans too heavily into the power fantasy for standard arrows to be that big of a concern.
But, if you also address those issues, and introduce gathering and crafting mechanics that don't disrupt the gameplay loop (and ideally integrate seamlessly with it), and perhaps draw down the power fantasy elements to make arrows of all kinds, including standard ones, more individually valuable as resources (rather than just flavor or a mechanical ribbon), then you could have resource management actually be fun for a player.
And of course, as others mentioned, it still does come down to preference. These ideas mainly go towards providing the better experience for the player that enjoys having resource management as part of the game; they may or may not do diddly for someone who doesn't like that kind of gameplay.
And part of the gameplay loop is looting; you need to get stuff to survive and stuff to help you get other stuff you need to survive, and all of it has limited usage, meaning you can't just get one and call it a day.
So you're always running around, looting stuff, and repeating constantly, forever.
But that isn't all there is to the game and how it plays out, because between the atmosphere of the game and the simple fragility of life, those long bouts of basically nothing contribute to the relatively short bouts of a whole of something being incredibly intense.
Running into another Survivor in DayZ, or triggering a zombie horde or a pack of wolves, is no laughing matter, even when you're fully geared. In fact, even a person whose fully decked out in military gear has to be wary of approaching unknown bambis, players who just spawned, because all they strictly need to end your life is a can of beans to beat you to death with.
In that game, resource management largely serves the purpose of filling out the gameplay inbetween these moments of intense violence and terror, and it goes fairly deep; you even have to upkeep your shoes, less you have to run barefoot, putting you at risk of cutting yourself and bleeding out.
In TTRPGs, specifically of the DND variety, the equivalent of those intense moments happen much more frequently in most games, even ones that attempt a more gritty take. As a result, the amount of resource management thats appropriate needs to be balanced with that frequency in mind, otherwise its just tedium.
But the other issue tends to be that of bloat that drags the game out, separately from tedious elements.
Counting arrows for instance tends to be well balanced for this in say early 5E. But as you get to later levels, and enemy HP starts to baloon, counting the arrows starts to get tedious because the arrows basically stay the same and your damage, if it goes up at all on average, doesn't always keep up with the amount of damage that needs to be put out.
In DayZ, this isn't much of a problem. Some guns are super weak and basically worthless outside of your first hour or so alive, but most of them are relatively equally lethal against all targets. Player skill tends to matter more than having bigger numbers.
So back in DND land, while you can push the game to be more player skill oriented and address the issue that way, but I think you can also address it going the other way. Using the arrow example, you could set it up to where arrows as a resource have more depth. Different types, effects, and quantities that one can count on having. These arrows would be differentiated from standard ones, and counted. Whereas standard arrows, might be effectively infinite; especially in 5e where there is no real crafting for them and the game leans too heavily into the power fantasy for standard arrows to be that big of a concern.
But, if you also address those issues, and introduce gathering and crafting mechanics that don't disrupt the gameplay loop (and ideally integrate seamlessly with it), and perhaps draw down the power fantasy elements to make arrows of all kinds, including standard ones, more individually valuable as resources (rather than just flavor or a mechanical ribbon), then you could have resource management actually be fun for a player.
And of course, as others mentioned, it still does come down to preference. These ideas mainly go towards providing the better experience for the player that enjoys having resource management as part of the game; they may or may not do diddly for someone who doesn't like that kind of gameplay.
Me being me, I checked the 4e PHB and it seems it was primarily a thing at level 3, 13, and 23. Almost all of the PHB fighter exploits at those levels had additional secondary effects if you used the right weapon, and pretty much no exploits at other levels. I don't know if that design held in later books.
Continual Light and Tenser's Floating DIsk are 1E spells in the 1978 Player's Handbook. They are 1st/2nd level. This isnt some high level munchkin nonsense. The default state is "torches no longer matter at 3rd level", and likely far before that, given that 1e adventures are dripping with items as well.
This fetishization over grubbing for coppers and counting sticks seems pretty revisionist when you actually look at the game and the published adventures.
I can assure you, however, I've played under more than one DM who absolutely wanted players to grub for coppers and count sticks at all levels of play.
Jd Smith1
Hero
Not back when I played it. with a 24 hour recenal of spell slots, you didn't see many non-combat spells.
This is a common enough game style. I still do it, as do some other DMs I know. Plus all the DMs I trained do it. It's a great and near perfect way to move a game forward.
So, as the internet tells me: some games have amazingly active players that move the game forward every second on game play. I find such players a bit rare. Some of my players are like this, and two of my groups, but the rest are something else.
The rest of the players out there are stuck in neutral. They will say the want to "do things" in the game, but when the game starts they don't do that at all.
Low or No Resources is a great way to move the game forward. If the characters want to do anything, they need resources to do so.
If that works for you and your players, great, but I've had different experiences- when players are always struggling to gain any meaningful resources, it can be pretty demoralizing. It can stop feeling less like a game, and a lot like being an ant under a cruel child's magnifying glass.
Especially when you suffer a TPK largely due to not having the resources to deal with ever escalating threats, and the DM just shrugs and tells you it's your fault. For what? Going on an adventure?
Especially when you suffer a TPK largely due to not having the resources to deal with ever escalating threats, and the DM just shrugs and tells you it's your fault. For what? Going on an adventure?
loverdrive
Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
Well, it depends. Do the benefits of tracking the resource outweight the tracking itself?
There's this category of resources that are just annoying and don't do anything — and this isn't endemic to TTRPGs, vidyagames have them too: hunger in Fallout: NV, weapon condition in Dark Souls, encumbrance in pretty much every damn game that has this mechanic, the list is pretty long.
They are annoying not because there's some kind of fundamental law that makes tracking hunger tedious. They are annoying because they are managed so easily that the worst consequence of mismanagement is, well, annoyance. You see a hunger icon/!!!WEAPON AT RISK!!! text/overencumbrance message/whatever, open a menu, click a button, make the icon go away. Much depth, so engaging.
In tabletop games, this issue is compounded by lack of a computer that does all the tracking, but that's not the root cause.
In D&D, nobody complains about tracking HP or spell slots. Nobody would complain about tracking ammo if it was an actually worthwhile endeavour either.
RPGs, just like all other games, benefit from design. Artificially restricting some parts of the game will go a long way to make things more fun, and improvements in "UI", like replacing pen and paper with, say, cards or tokens or whatever can help to make tracking less tedious, but, again, will be pointless if the resource itself ain't worth tracking in the first place.
There's this category of resources that are just annoying and don't do anything — and this isn't endemic to TTRPGs, vidyagames have them too: hunger in Fallout: NV, weapon condition in Dark Souls, encumbrance in pretty much every damn game that has this mechanic, the list is pretty long.
They are annoying not because there's some kind of fundamental law that makes tracking hunger tedious. They are annoying because they are managed so easily that the worst consequence of mismanagement is, well, annoyance. You see a hunger icon/!!!WEAPON AT RISK!!! text/overencumbrance message/whatever, open a menu, click a button, make the icon go away. Much depth, so engaging.
In tabletop games, this issue is compounded by lack of a computer that does all the tracking, but that's not the root cause.
In D&D, nobody complains about tracking HP or spell slots. Nobody would complain about tracking ammo if it was an actually worthwhile endeavour either.
RPGs, just like all other games, benefit from design. Artificially restricting some parts of the game will go a long way to make things more fun, and improvements in "UI", like replacing pen and paper with, say, cards or tokens or whatever can help to make tracking less tedious, but, again, will be pointless if the resource itself ain't worth tracking in the first place.
loverdrive
Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
Specifically encumbrance, in my opinion, should be designed around the idea that you can't carry e everything you'll need. Well, if you have encumbrance at all.
A meaningful choice is, first and foremost, a sacrifice. If tracking a resource doesn't lead to sacrifices, then you can safely ditch it and nothing will change.
A meaningful choice is, first and foremost, a sacrifice. If tracking a resource doesn't lead to sacrifices, then you can safely ditch it and nothing will change.
reelo
Hero
Right around when gameplay transitioned from dungeon delving to wilderness (h)exploration.
Well, for some people. Others look at the name of the game and say "man, more of this, please". Then again, wilderness exploration is also pretty much solved by level 5 at the very latest, though cracks appear at 1st level!Right around when gameplay transitioned from dungeon delving to wilderness (h)exploration.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
You'd think, right?
Yet for the last 40 years and counting I've seen characters who were richer than kings still scrape every copper out of the dungeon. And I don't give xp for treasure.
