Is "Shield" too powerful?

It's useful 40% of the time a (50% chance to hit) attack hits.

But in the case of 2e, it's never used when it is not useful.

In the case of 2d, it's rarely used when it is not useful.

Hence, it is basically auto-protect for those DM situations. It's:

DM: "He hits you."
Player: "No he doesn't."

The issue is that 2e's chance to fail is 0%, not that it cannot always be used if the DM plays it that way. It is always more useful if it cannot fail when it can be used than if it possibly can fail.

There is no chance of failure for 2e, hence, 2e is more useful than 2a through 2d. There is almost no chance of failure for 2d, hence, 2d is more useful than 2a through 2c.

Can you calculate the exact amount those are better? I cannot. I just know they are a lot better than if using it can fail.
Well, I can calculate it, I just won't because you're basing it on something entirely different than the reality of the game. Kind of like the gamblers fallacy that something is "due" because the opposite has happened X number of times in the past. My math covers ALL possibilities.

1st, shield only works on 20% of attacks and only if those attacks are in the 73% of AC/Reflex attacks. This is EXACTLY 14.6% chance that each time a wizard is attacked shield can be of use.

2nd the halfling power works on ANY attack but only changes the outcome about 50% of the time. This is roughly a 25% chance that each time the wizard is attacked the reroll power can help. PLUS the halfling attack is 95% likely to remove a crit. AND as an additional bonus (pretty hard to compute the exact math number) it can block attacks that are vs will and fort which are vastly more likely to have an additional effect than attacks vs AC. So the reroll power can prevent a stun, daze, immobilize or ongoing damage much more frequently than shield can. Valuing this is pretty abstract as is valuing crit reduction but they both add value to the power and can't be totally ignored. I was willing to call this roughly equal to the ongoing ac defense value of shield, but you tried to use an obscure and unlikely anecdotal scenario to show that the continuing benefit of shield was very impressive. I would argue pretty strongly that second chance is more effective than shield AND the added benefits of second chance are also stronger than the continuing benefits of shield. Shield is more definite, in that if an attack vs reflex or AC hits by 3 or less shield can always change the outcome. You have somehow confused the definitiveness with effectiveness. If I offered you a power that automatically blocks all damage when the dm rolls an 18 on the ATT vs one that gives you a 40% chance to block all damage on ATT rolls 16-19 which would you take?

Arguing that it's "a lot better" if it can't fail to be effective when it's used has several serious flaws. First you discount the fact that in many encounters shield can NEVER be effective. Second, you're taking the times when shield does work out of context with the times it doesn't. Of course when shield works it's more effective than second chance. When it works it works. Second chance will still block more attacks over the life of your pc than shield. Third your math avoids the reality that the most dangerous attacks have a higher probability of having a larger chance of success. Take a look at a young green dragon for instance. 1000 exp, level 5 encounter for 5 level 2 pc's (to compare to my earlier goblin example). Breath weapon and frightful presence both hit defenses that shield can't help with AND both have ongoing effects. +8 vs will or +8 vs fort. blocking a d6+5 claw (6-11 and 8.5 avg) is a LOT less important than blocking d10+3 and 5 ongoing plus slow (save ends both) with an after effect of slow (save ends). The attack is 5 ongoing alone is roughly 10 damage on average and 15+ more than 20% of the time, so you're looking at 4-13 initially with 8.5 average and a likely 9-38+ with 18 being the roughly average expected outcome. This doesn't even take into account how much additional damage you might take from being slowed and unable to maneuver.

What's the average will/fort defense of a level 2 pc? 13-15? This means that the really important attack might have a 60-75% chance to hit. Third and most important, you make the fallacious argument that shield is too powerful and thus needs to be "downgraded". Making shield more effective is not a bad thing when you consider that no matter how it's played on average it's LESS effective than the halfling power or shield of faith. We're not talking about making a level 2 power that automatically prevents 40 damage we're talking about keeping it close to other similar powers. Your convoluted grasp of logic and clinging to the instances when shield does work as being too powerful without considering all the times it fails to work is just a blatant disregard for mathematics and reality.
 
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For what it's worth we play with the player having the knowledge of what roll to hit was. Shield seems nigh useless otherwise.
 

Our Wizard has had Shield since second level. It has only made a difference twice, (IE: He would either not have been hit anyway, or would have still been hit if his AC was 4 higher) and we are now 8th level. Doesn't seem that over powered to me.
 

It's fairly easy for a player to know the difference between AC/Reflex and Fort/Will attacks.

AC is physical objects flying at his body.
Reflex is a ray spell, that he's trying to dodge out of the way of.
Fort/Will are attacks that affect his body/mind -- meaning they always hit (like old school hold person) but he has the chance to shake it off.
 

1) AngryPurpleCyclops? Less angry please

2) I am currently playing a wizard with shield. In about a dozen encounters I've not had call to actually use it yet. I agree with Joker and Bagpuss, full disclosure seems a non-issue.

3) In the game I run, there is a halfling cleric. His 'second chance' power is effectively a 'negate crit' power. Every time I've got a crit on his bony little hide he second chances it away. Lucky little beggars. Shield couldn't have done that.

Cheers
 

1) AngryPurpleCyclops? Less angry please

2) I am currently playing a wizard with shield. In about a dozen encounters I've not had call to actually use it yet. I agree with Joker and Bagpuss, full disclosure seems a non-issue.

3) In the game I run, there is a halfling cleric. His 'second chance' power is effectively a 'negate crit' power. Every time I've got a crit on his bony little hide he second chances it away. Lucky little beggars. Shield couldn't have done that.

Cheers
sorry, truthfully not angry at all, and not trying to create flames. It's just difficult to reason with someone who questions your math which is the actual probability of a situation and then posts some pseudo-math that doesn't even make sense as the "real math".
 

It's fairly easy for a player to know the difference between AC/Reflex and Fort/Will attacks.

AC is physical objects flying at his body.
Reflex is a ray spell, that he's trying to dodge out of the way of.
Fort/Will are attacks that affect his body/mind -- meaning they always hit (like old school hold person) but he has the chance to shake it off.
I agree and disagree. Many attacks it's obvious but quite a few are not so obvious.

Ray of Frost hits fort. Ray of enfeeblement as well.
Bugbear warrior's skull thumper hit's fort even though he's swinging a morning star.
 

1. Because it is not information that PCs should have. A black bolt coming from an enemy caster could be anything. Without a successful arcana check, how exactly does the PC know what it is?

2. These are metagaming rules. There is no "go back in time" for the PC. There is "go back in time and change a hit to a miss" for players.

3. Are you claiming that PCs know what Will Defense is? What hit points are? What AC is? What to hit rolls are?

Yes, they are crystal clear. An interrupt on any attack with a to hit roll, regardless of whether the Shield spell affects that attack or not.

4. This is not rules lawyering, this is RAW.


1. Yes, PCs know which defense is attacked. Is it something you would dodge, accept and hope your protections are good enough, resist with your body, or your mind.

2. Yes, there is. It's called an Imediate Interrupt. I'm not pleased with the concept myself, but it's the best way to make the mechanic work. Just like healing in 4E. It would be too powerful if it were an encounter long power or the like.

3. See #1

4. You lose any debate just by using that nonsense term. :P
 

It's useful 40% of the time a (50% chance to hit) attack hits.

But in the case of 2e, it's never used when it is not useful.

In the case of 2d, it's rarely used when it is not useful.

Hence, it is basically auto-protect for those DM situations. It's:

DM: "He hits you."
Player: "No he doesn't."

The issue is that 2e's chance to fail is 0%, not that it cannot always be used if the DM plays it that way. It is always more useful if it cannot fail when it can be used than if it possibly can fail.

There is no chance of failure for 2e, hence, 2e is more useful than 2a through 2d. There is almost no chance of failure for 2d, hence, 2d is more useful than 2a through 2c.

Can you calculate the exact amount those are better? I cannot. I just know they are a lot better than if using it can fail.

"You managed to prove in your shield calculations that when shield is useful it's useful. What you didn't calculate was how likely it was to be useful. When you went from 2c to 2d you changed the last number from the chance that the number is within the range to the chance that the PCs correctly guess a number already in the range, which renders 2d and 2e totally invalid compared to the first three."
 

Agreed.
1) Second Chance is only used on a successful hit. So, 100% to start with. If the attack missed, Second Chance would not be used. It also works against all attack rolls, regardless of defense, so another 100%. With a 50% chance to hit, we have an original 90% chance of a normal hit (11 to 19) and a 10% chance of a critical (20). So the average amount it protects is calculated by:

100% * 100% * (90% normal damage * (50% of a miss - 5% chance of a critical) + 10% critical damage * (50% of a miss + 45% of normal damage))

This works out to an improvement 54.5% of the time and a worsening of the situation 4.5% of the time. 41% of the time, no change. Ironically, one could distill this down to a 50% chance of improvement (for a 50% chance to hit).

These percentages are higher if the player mostly uses the power to minimize a critical, but if he does that, there are times when he won't use it in an encounter at all. Pros and Cons.

2) Shield also is only used on a successful hit. So, 100% to start with. However, Shield works differently from game to game depending on the DM's adjudication:

2a) The DM rules that the PCs do not know anything about the attack.

73% of the time, a monster will use an AC or Reflex attack (on average in the MM).

If an attack occurs with a 50% chance to hit, Shield will nullify the attack 40% of the time (4 numbers out of the 10 possible to hit numbers).

So, 100% * 73% * 40% = 29.2%

2b) The DM rules that the PCs know the type of attack (e.g. Fort or Reflex), but they nothing about the die result or total.

100% * 100% * 40% = 40%

2c) The DM rules that the PCs do not know the type of attack, but rolls the attack die in front of the players.

If the players see an 8 through a 14 or so on the die, there is a very high chance that Shield will work (not all creatures have a 50% chance to hit). If they see a 17, Shield will almost never help (although it would have once in our game). This is also dependent on how high an AC or Reflex the PC Wizard has (higher ones bump up the range some). For the most part, the player has a high chance (80% in my estimation) of guessing correctly if he can see the die roll.

100% * 73% * 80% (a guess) = 58.4%

2d) The DM rules that the PCs know the type of attack and rolls the attack die in front of the players.

100% * 100% * 80% (a guess) = 80%

2e) The DM rules that the PCs know everything (i.e. the total attack roll and the type of the attack).

100% * 100% * 100% = 100%

Granted, 2e is not a true 100%. It is just 100% of the first attack in an encounter for which Shield will definitely work.

But, the comparison of 1 and 2a does show us that worse case scenario is 29.2% for Shield versus 50% for Second Chance. What it does not show is that Shield also can be used for multiple attacks versus one for Second Chance. That ups the 29.2% somewhat, especially in situations where the Wizard has multiple foes. Even if the first use of Shield does not stop an attack, later uses in the round might.

So, doesn't 2d and 2e seem overpowered when compared to 1 considering that Second Chance cannot stop multiple attacks and Shield can?

2a and 2b seem like the most balanced adjudications.

When one also considers how frequently people take Shield as their primary second level utility power, one should consider if 2a or 2b is the more reasonable adjudication. Personally, I think 2a is more balanced, but I can see why people would pick 2b.

2e is ridiculously powerful and useful compared to Second Chance.

"You managed to prove in your shield calculations that when shield is useful it's useful. What you didn't calculate was how likely it was to be useful. When you went from 2c to 2d you changed the last number from the chance that the number is within the range to the chance that the PCs correctly guess a number already in the range, which renders 2d and 2e totally invalid compared to the first three."

I'd go a little further. I don't think 2c is a valid calculation either. As you can see, in 2c,d,e the chance that Shield works is completely unrelated to its +4 bonus. 2c and d are hard to get a realistic calculation for, because it means specifying player knowledge of the monster's distribution of attack bonuses/what save they're attacking, versus the actual numbers. Scenario 2e is much easier.

Here's how to do a valid calculation for 2e. Let's take the simplest scenario possible: all attacks are identical in their chance to hit (hitting at least 25% of the time) and damage, with a set number n of attacks per encounter (all this information is known to the player). We're only considering "attacks" something that targets Reflex and AC here, and expected damage prevented (==number of attacks blocked here) is the metric for effectiveness. When I run a comparison with Second Chance, assuming that all attacks are equal is definitely in Shield's favor.

Shield's chance to be effective per attack is p= 0.2, since it's a +4 bonus.

Then the chance that Shield is effective is 1- (1-p)^n, and p=0.2, so this is 1-0.8^n. When you use Shield, you also get the benefit until the end of your next turn. So this means that Shield stops more than one expected attack if you’re targeted by additional attacks. Let’s assume conservatively that you’ll get targeted by 0.25 additional attacks while the Shield power lasts; at a 0.2 chance to block each, that means each time you use Shield you’re blocking 1+0.2*0.25= 1.05 attacks. This gives us an expected number of attacks blocked by Shield equal to 1.05*[1- (1-p)^n].

Plug in for a few different values of n:
n Number of attacks blocked
1 0.2100
2 0.3780
3 0.5124
4 0.6199
5 0.7059
6 0.7747

The more attacks there are, the better Shield gets, because the more likely it is to block an attack. Likewise, if Shield gave higher than a +4 bonus it would also be more valuable under this metric.

Second Chance: Optimal use of Second Chance, even assuming all attacks were identical, involves solving a dynamic programming problem to determine whether you should reserve it for a critical or should simply use it on any hit. Optimal strategy in this simple example would presumably be "if there will be k or more attacks against me left after this attack, only use Second Chance against a critical hit; otherwise use it against any hit." From this you can determine the optimal k relatively easily.

If you assume a crit is equivalent to 1.5 regular hits, and the chance to hit is 0.5 (0.45 of that non-crit, 0.05 of that a critical hit) you get optimal k=4. That is, if there will be 4 or more attacks against you after the current attack, only use Second Chance against a critical hit; if there will be fewer than 4 attacks against you after the current attack, use Second Chance against any hit (side note: assuming that the player knows exactly how many attacks there will be against him helps to use Second Chance more effectively, but as long as the player has a pretty good idea of the number of attacks he’ll face, this shouldn’t change much).

Doing some further calculations, the “regular hit equivalents” blocked by Second Chance here are a function of the number of attacks as follows:

# attacks Regular-hit equivalents blocked
1 0.2850
2 0.4275
3 0.4988
4 0.5344
5 0.5564
6 0.5934
7 0.6201
8 0.6415
9 0.6599
10 0.6765
11 0.6918
12 0.7061

Note that the number of “attacks” facing a character with Shield and Second Chance is going to be different because Shield only applies to AC/Ref, and because as a racial power, Second Chance can be used by non-wizard classes who will tend to be attacked more in combat. Let’s ignore the second factor and assume we’re only comparing them for the same wizard character. Then we can use the “75% of attacks target AC/Reflex” assumption, which means we should pick the number for Second Chance to be 4/3 of that for Shield.

For easy comparison, let’s call a number of attacks 3 (Shield) vs. 4 (Second Chance) the low case and 6 vs. 8 the high case.

Low attacks case:
Shield: 0.5124 blocked
Second Chance: 0.5344 blocked

High attacks case
Shield: 0.7747 blocked
Second Chance: 0.6415 blocked

In conclusion, from this simple calculation it should be clear that Shield and Second Chance are comparable unless these assumptions are dramatically different from actual practice. The attacks are identical assumption is the biggest simplification I’ve made, and that certainly helps Shield (though I was conservative on the number of additional attacks that Shield would apply to), but its lead in the “high case” is still under 20%.
 

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