Is "Shield" too powerful?

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, that's one of the things that bugs some of my fellow players about 4e, having to stick with the same power until the end of time bothers them a lot.

Except that they can retrain them. They are not forced to stick with the same utility power until the end of time. Only the same level of a power.

With the exception of Warlocks, there are often 3 to 5 (although 2 in the case of 16th Paladin and 6 in the case of 6th Wizard) utility powers of the same level for each class, so that's quite a bit of flexibility.

 

[Henry]

Er, you don't trade out utility powers like you do with encounter or daily powers. At 22nd level, I'm pretty sure I'll still prepare shield, along with the utility powers gained at 6th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 22nd level.

Ah, I missed that -- however, it can still be retrained for another level 2 utility, and for a wizard's money, feather fall and exped. retreat for higher level play are far more worth it. At lower levels, the bigger threat in my opinion is the big bad that can smack you silly - for higher levels, the big threat is the 100-foot falls the DM threatens the whole party with when the Rocs snatch you.

 

[Stalker0]

Except that they can retrain them. They are not forced to stick with the same utility power until the end of time. Only the same level of a power.

But usually the utility I pick is the one I want from that list, so its not really a new choice. I mean if some utility powers started failing at high levels and others started picking up, the sure that would be useful. But if I pick shield from the list, it means I want shield more than the other utilities, so the ability to change is just the ability for me to have the option to choose something I don't want.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, that's one of the things that bugs some of my fellow players about 4e, having to stick with the same power until the end of time bothers them a lot.

But usually the utility I pick is the one I want from that list, so its not really a new choice. I mean if some utility powers started failing at high levels and others started picking up, the sure that would be useful. But if I pick shield from the list, it means I want shield more than the other utilities, so the ability to change is just the ability for me to have the option to choose something I don't want.

Color me confused. Is it annoying that you have Shield at 22nd level, or are you getting what you want?

Personally, my Wizard is always going to find Shield useful, but that's my concept. He's also going to be swinging a longsword, so I expect he's not like most other Wizards.

Cheers, -- N

 

[KarinsDad]

Definitely. Per the DMG, I'm obligated to do so - doing otherwise is a "gotcha" tactic. Besides, why would I want to make a player waste a power? It's less fun for him, and the goal is to have fun.

Nonsense.

As a player, I like to be challenged. I want new and unusual circumstances. That's FUN.

Being spoon fed the answer by the DM all of the time is not fun. If I make a mistake as a player, that's ok. It's not "less fun".

And, the DMG did not state what you claim it states. It limits information to PC knowledge, not player knowledge.

They are two different sets of knowledge.


Are you claiming that the PC KNOWS every single time which defense enemy attacks use before the affects of the power are applied? Where is this in the rules? Where is it in the rules that PCs know what defenses even are?

Sure they know after the fact (PHB page 57) how the power affects them, but they only know once the power affects them. This says nothing about before the power affects them or which defense the power affects.

Hit points are an abstraction, but players always know their own HP score. Thus, you can tell whether an attack is going to miss, or get close enough to wear you down further. Also remember that Shield is an interrupt with a condition of "You are hit by an attack", so you can use it after you're hit to raise your AC and change that hit into a miss.

Yes, players know their HP scores. PCs do not.

The DMG limits the knowledge to PC knowledge, not player knowledge.

See above. Also, that attitude is not one that makes the game enjoyable to play. You seem to be rules-lawyering because you think the power is too effective. If it was a +1 bonus instead of +4, would you do the same thing?

Again, nonsense. The game does not need to be played your way to be fun. And, you are the one who pulled out the DMG rule and then start saying "rules-lawyering" when somebody disagrees with your interpretation.

I do agree that spoon feeding your players and telling them:

DM: "Bob, Shield will not work this time because he hit you by 5"

or

DM: "Bob, he hit you for 40 points of damage and only made the roll by 3, so Shield will stop it"

does make Shield too effective. 100% effective as a matter of fact.

If someone swings a bat at me, and they miss, I'm pretty sure I'd know if I was lucky, or skillful, or resolute enough to avoid the blow. How many fantasy novels have you read where the main character is thinking, "I dodged that attack, but my luck is running out. It's only a matter of time until he gets me?" It's a pretty common facet of the genre.

But, this does not apply to the Shield mechanics.

Knowing that one is lucky to be missed says nothing about how unlucky one was to "just barely be hit". Apples and oranges comparison and has nothing to do with the rules discussion here on how Shield works.

 

[KarinsDad]

But usually the utility I pick is the one I want from that list, so its not really a new choice. I mean if some utility powers started failing at high levels and others started picking up, the sure that would be useful. But if I pick shield from the list, it means I want shield more than the other utilities, so the ability to change is just the ability for me to have the option to choose something I don't want.

In the case of Wizard utility spells, players have two choices. Two spells to know and one to prepare. Three to know in the case of Expanded Spellbook.

Although Shield is better most of the time, there are definitely times where the player knows that Feather Fall will be more useful.

Ditto for spells like Fly at higher level, but Levitate at lower level (or some Wizard might take both every time).

At low levels, Dispel Magic is probably not very useful and might not be taken as a known spell. At high level, it might become very useful.

As a PC gains magic items that have certain Daily or Property powers, it might be more useful to swap out Daily utility powers that are less useful. For example, if a Wizard has Mantle of the Seventh Wind, does he really need Levitate and Fly?

I'm sure some players tend to stick with whatever powers they picked early on, but there are also players who switch it up, even if just to see how effective some power is in the game.

 

[Stalker0]

In the case of Wizard utility spells, players have two choices. Two spells to know and one to prepare. Three to know in the case of Expanded Spellbook.

Just as a note, expanded spellbook doesn't give you more utilities, only more daily attack powers.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I feel that as a 4e DM it is appropriate to let the wizard know whether his shield spell is usable or useless against a particular strike if he asks me.

Cheers

 

[Nifft]

I do agree that spoon feeding your players and telling them:

DM: "Bob, Shield will not work this time because he hit you by 5"

or

DM: "Bob, he hit you for 40 points of damage and only made the roll by 3, so Shield will stop it"

does make Shield too effective. 100% effective as a matter of fact.

You're lumping two things together that ought not be so lumped: attack and damage.

Staff of Defense is the only power I've seen that allows you to declare its use after hearing damage. Other interrupt powers may only allow you to know the attack roll.

This is the difference between:

• "Does a 25 hit?"

... and ...

• "Does a 25 hit? Because if it does, that's 80 hit points, I'm going to push your whole family into a pit, and ice weasels will have their way with your daughter."

Smidgen of a difference there.

In your example, where the DM rolls attack and damage and doesn't need to ask the player his AC, at what point is the player expected to decide whether to use Shield or not? Asking the AC makes this decision very natural, since the DM is waiting for a response from the player anyway. In your game, does the player literally have to interrupt the DM's monologue?

Cheers, -- N

 

[doctorhook]

Let's say I'm a rogue jumping over a pit. Often I would move to the pit, jump the pit, and continue my move. As a wizard, I could ready an action to give the rogue a bonus on his jump.

But if I use the power, that's my move action. I would have to move up to the pit as my first move, and my second move would be to use the jump power. I would move as far as I jumped, and then would have to stop. When I use the power on myself I can't combine the jump with regular movement.

Thanks for the explanation, Stalker0. I see what you're saying now.

Perhaps Jump ought to be a minor action spell that grants a free move action in the form of a jump? (As opposed to a move action spell that does the same, if I understand you.)

I feel that as a 4e DM it is appropriate to let the wizard know whether his shield spell is usable or useless against a particular strike if he asks me.

Cheers

Agreed. YMMV, KD, but I find it too antagonistic, as a DM, not to give my players the information they need to use their powers properly. Any "ineffectiveness" by Shield ought to come from the spell being ineffective against Fortitude and Will attacks, and not from the DM saying "Gotcha!", IMO.

This brings us back to the main topic; assuming disclosure of attack rolls by the DM, is Shield too effective? I'm beginning to learn towards "No".