D&D 3E/3.5 Is Sorcerer the weakest 3.5 base class now?

[Darklone]

Lack of support for the sorcerer in 3rd party products? If you think he's too weak, give him some abilities from Scarred Lands books such as a domain....

 

[Khaalis]

Don't forget the cost to the wizard to scribe the spells into his book. Wizzo also must carry the book around with him; it's kinda heavy, and must be protected.

Aye, everyone talks about the cost. However, that is the Wizards only real money sink. Wizards more often than not dont need to worry about armor, weapons, general equipment... how many times do you see the Wizard walking around with a backpack full of torches, rope, stakes, etc.?

Once you start talking magical gear, its a pretty even run for the money between the wizard and the other classes on expenditures. Wizards still dont really need armor, weapons, etc. It especially balances when in a game where the DM keeps a constant flux on magic items. Sunder really sucks when you just bought that shiny new magic weapon...

Lack of support for the sorcerer in 3rd party products? If you think he's too weak, give him some abilities from Scarred Lands books such as a domain....

Even SL thought they were weak and "tweaked" the class. Domains arent a bad idea. Its one I am working with for the Sorcerer re-build, using the Arcane Domains from Unearthed Arcana.

I am also looking hard at the concepts used to build the Witch in Arcana Unearthed.

 

[Darklone]

Well... I have to admit I don't use sorcerers often either (except some Mahotsukai sorcerers), I prefer the Kalamarian spellsinger variant for style reasons.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My highest level character is a sorcerer (just hit 9th) and I have to tell you that I'm a much more valuable asset to the party than either of the two wizards who are with us.

In the game I DM'd the 8th level sorcerer was far more useful to the party than the 8th level wizard.

Before about 8th level the sorcerer seems a little underpowered, but by the time 8th is reached they can cast their useful 3rd level spells about 8 times should they wish. Dispel magic didn't work? try again and again! Whole party needs to fly? Done!

The sorcerer never has wasted spell slots, the wizard often does. The sorcerer is also the master of metamagic. Mine has still spell, silent spell and empower spell (alongside leadership - a great feat for sorcerers with their charisma). I never have to fear being caught by silence because I can still cast any of my spells that I want to. If the wizard had used one of his fourth level slots to prepare silenced dispel magic (he hasn't yet), and that failed to dispel the silence, what is he going to do next?

To my mind the one advantage that the wizard really gets is in item creation. This is also campaign dependent because of time allowed, but if a 5th level wizard crafts a wand of fireballs he can then use that promiscuously until it runs out and he can make a higher level one for the challenges he then faces. Sorcerers are far worse at making magic items because they don't have access to the wide range of spells needed to make a wide range of items.

Certainly on the "equal fun" level I'd say that sorcerers have been equal fun to play (once past 3rd level at any rate!)

I'd also say that although sorcerers appear to be ideal for beginners, they are actually a huge trap for beginners, because it is very easy to end up with a lot of spells that are not generally usable. Picking a decent array of spells for the sorcerer is quite a tricky thing IMO.

Cheers

 

[diaglo]

in the 2000ed metamagic feats were key for wizards. and with bonus feats well worth taking.

sorc in that regard were weaker.

but it really depends on the campaign

overall the Commoner is still the weakest class.

 

[billd91]

A couple of reasons for the unpopularity of the sorcerer come to mind:

1. The class mimics the wizard too much. They share the same spell list and their abilities overall are too similar. The only real difference is one uses a spellbook and the other doesn't. In contrast, if you compare the druid and the cleric, while both are full progression divine casters, they have separate spell lists and their flexibile abilities allow each class to have its own niche.

2. The class lacks synergy.Sorcerers need charisma, but charisma does offer them any significant synergies to their abilities outside of spellcasting. In 3.0 they did not even have any charisma based skills. In 3.5 they have ONE -- Bluff.

3. Lack of support from WotC and third party material. Most of the stuff published on arcane casters is about wizards.

I don't think the sorcerer is really particularly less powerful. They can use metamagic feats on the fly for significant power with minimal cost (so they lose a move-action, big deal). They can certainly be combat monsters, especially once the levels have gotten up there. "Oh, that Disintegrate didn't work? Here's another. I got plenty more..." But therein, kind of, lies the rub.
I think that WotC designers of 3E/3.5 have fixated a bit too much on the combat power of the classes as far as achieving balance at the expense of other kinds of balance such as screen-time balance. They may shine in combat, but are decidedly unflavorful anywhere else and, I think Ogre Mage's points above identify why.

There's little to distinguish it from the wizard and little additional support has been given. The skill point parity between the two seems especially staggering because the wizard is sure to have a significant intelligence bonus. Talk about synergy. The sorcerer may have to scrimp a bit on intelligence and fall way behind in skills. Skills, for the most part, are relatively unlikely to make a huge difference in combat for a major spell-slinger, but they can make a difference in balancing overall screen-time for a character.

I like the way Charisma is used in 3E/3.5. It may be marginally less powerful than some of the other stats I don't think it needs any fixing. It's a stat that has teeth, not for all classes, but for a few where it really should matter (cleric, paladin, rogue, bard, and to a lesser extent ranger and druid if they want to be really good at animal empathy). It's the class that needs fixing.

But as I said, it's not the combat power of the class that needs any fixing. It's the role-playing/how the character can build a niche/flavor aspects of the class that need the fixing.

 

[thalmin]

Aye, everyone talks about the cost. However, that is the Wizards only real money sink. Wizards more often than not dont need to worry about armor, weapons, general equipment... how many times do you see the Wizard walking around with a backpack full of torches, rope, stakes, etc.?

In this regard I was comparing the wizard to the sorcerer, who also doesn't need any of that.

 

[Crothian]

Sorcerers are an odd class. They look so weak on paper, but when played they really shine.

For Sorcerer support I highly recomend the Players Guide to Wizards, Sorceres, and Bards as well as Quint Sorcerer. Both of them do a great job of really understanding the Sorcerer and expanding upon it in a good way.

 

[Li Shenron]

Although I agree that Sorcerers are easier to play, mostly because spontaneous casting require less short-time planning and because less spell known means less the player has to know himself, if a Sorcerer's strength was only that it's "Wizard for beginners" then its place should be in a beginner's boxed set and not in the PHB. I don't want to belive it's there because of beginner players only.

 

[Khaalis]

Sorcerers are an odd class. They look so weak on paper, but when played they really shine.

For Sorcerer support I highly recomend the Players Guide to Wizards, Sorceres, and Bards as well as Quint Sorcerer. Both of them do a great job of really understanding the Sorcerer and expanding upon it in a good way.

I love a LOT of the IDEAS in Q-Sorcerer. Mongoose is fantastic with the concepts. However, I tend to find that their mechanics lacking. Not always though. Mongoose is the perfect example of the Hit-or-Miss publisher in my opion. Now I would be quite happy if Green Ronin published an expenaion on Sorcerers.