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D&D 3E/3.5 Is Sorcerer the weakest 3.5 base class now?

Khaalis

Adventurer
Li Shenron said:
Although I agree that Sorcerers are easier to play, mostly because spontaneous casting require less short-time planning and because less spell known means less the player has to know himself, if a Sorcerer's strength was only that it's "Wizard for beginners" then its place should be in a beginner's boxed set and not in the PHB. I don't want to belive it's there because of beginner players only.

Unfortunately its there for an even more sad reason - to balance the class system structure. 2 Pure divine casters required 2 Pure arcane casters. They wrote a fantastic flavor text for a class but when the mechanic implementation time came they simply copied the wizard and let them prepare spells differently. I honestly think they would have been better off biting the bullet with the birth of the new 3E to break from the vancian spell mold and create a truly unique spellcaster. The more I look at Psions, the more I say to myself - that is what the sorcerer should have been. /shrug
Just my humble $0.02 worth.
 

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jgsugden

Legend
How powerful is a sorcerer compared to a wizard? That depends upon the campaign setting and the skill of the players. I've seen a sorcerer be the most powerful PC in the game. I've seen them be very useless.

Most formulas and calculations fail to take into consideration the reality of the game: wizards often memorize useless spells because they have no idea what they'll be facing, wizards become progressively weaker throughout encounters as their spells dry up and their options narrow while sorcerers stay strong until they run out of slots at a particular level, etc ...

In the hands of a capable player, either class can shine. My 12th level sorcerer is the most powerful PC in his 6 PC party - and he is far from optimized. Heck, there was one time when he ended up soloing a section of a dungeon intended for the entire party. Scout things out with a stealthy familiar, throw a couple summoned monsters together as temporary meat shields, walk in with a few defensive spells already up and throw area effect spells until things stop moving. If a wizard tried that, he'd be screwed if there were any unexpected surprises - if he even had enough spells available to do it in the first place.
 

Khaalis

Adventurer
Well I know this isnt the correct forum, but real quickly this conversation brings up an old House Rule I have used for Wizards since way way back. Is that I allow a Wizard in a no-stress situation to cast spells from their spellbooks. Instead of prearing them to be "completed". They can simply cast the whole thing from the book. This takes 10 minutes per spell level of the spell however. So if they really need that Knock spell and have the 20 minutes to cast - go for it. It has never unbalanced a game with a wizard in the group.
 
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Korak

First Post
The biggest reason why wizards are so superior to sorcerers is pearls of power. They enable the wizard to buy spellslots that the sorcerer can never match. And, with bonus metamagic/crafting feats, the wizard can craft them up at half cost. I have a love/hate relationship with pearls of power. The concept is great and the utility of a small handful for a prepared spell caster are great, but a line can definitely be crossed where they get obscene. One campaign I play in currently has a limit of 4 per spell level imposed by the DM. Even with that, a non-specialized wizard will have 2 more spells/day at each level than the sorcerer with the same score in his casting stat.

I think sorcerer needs some real work, and I would absolutely love it if they had their own spell list.
 


Otterscrubber

First Post
I play a sorcerer who has just hit 20th level and I do not feel that the class is inferior. Spontaneous casting has so many uses, those who criticize it obviously have never been in a situation where the wizard has cast his one dispel magic and found himself wishing he had more available. Simple thing is a sorcerer NEVER has any unwanted spells in his selection, wizards cannot say the same. That doesn't sound like much but it really is something, at least from my gameplay experience.

With the addition of Limited Wish a sorcerer becomes very flexible indeed at higher levels. Sure it costs 300xp, but that isn't too much to pay if you really need a spell to save the day is it? Plus it's just cool and sorcerer-like to mimic spells you don't really have.

Do I think wizards are inferior to sorcerers? No, they are just a different class and I find it hard to say one class is better than others in a role playing game. There are no weak classes, just weak players.

From a mechanic standpoint my only gripe with sorcerers is that they do not get anything extra as they level. They are a bit front loaded and this makes it a little less exciting to level as all other characters do get neat stuff as they level in addition to BAB and saving throw increases and increase spell selection. If there is a prestige class that allows you to gain spells AND get cool abilities there is no reason whatsoever to stay a sorcerer except for flavor and just saying you are a pure sorcerer.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
Khaalis said:
I love a LOT of the IDEAS in Q-Sorcerer. Mongoose is fantastic with the concepts. However, I tend to find that their mechanics lacking. Not always though. Mongoose is the perfect example of the Hit-or-Miss publisher in my opion. Now I would be quite happy if Green Ronin published an expenaion on Sorcerers.

I agree, mongoose really pushes the envelope. Sometimes they do it right sometimes not, but at least they do it!!

If you look at the house rules forum, there are several threads about fixing sors. I've written a couple recently, Khaalis has his big project working on there too.

My main beef with sorcs is there ultimate flexibility requires ultimately flexible spells. There's only so much you can do with a fireball, no matter what metamagics you slap on to it, no matter how many times you can cast it. There aren't that many flexible spells in the ph. Most of them are in the illusion and enchantment schools, and coincidentially, many many sorcs are illusionists or enchanters:)

Now that wouldn't be so bad if sorcs had some others things going for them... but they don't. While they are fine power wise as a class, they tend to be cookie-cutter and really lacking in flavor.
 

Rashak Mani

First Post
Well another long time Sorceror reporting in... 13th lvl now.

Wizards are great when you know what your going to face during the day... and in most of the games we play that doesn't happen that often. When the going gets tough the Sorceror outshines the Wizard easily I feel. Many monsters and creatures are immune or less vunerable to certain spells and a wizard would have at best a spell or two ready. If I have a useful spell I can cast it a ridiculous amount of times.

I have cast empowered Magic Missile in a 5th lvl slot instead of 3rd lvl after depleting the lower levels badly. I don't know any Wizards capable of casting 8 Magic Missiles... half of them empowered. (yep... it was the best spell for the ocassion).

In another ocassion we were expecting Drows... and we got anything but Drows thrown at us by the DM. It was horrid... and my sorceror just dished out spell after spell. Including multiple Walls of Force and two Summon 6.

Now if your campaign has only one heavy encounter per day... then pick the wimpy wizard. Now if you require heavy magic use and less books... pick Sorceror... ;)
 


apsuman

First Post
This might be useful, especially to those who think that the sorcerer is underpowered.

Let us compare two borthers, Wally the wizard and his twin Sol the sorcerer. Wally has an 18 INT and Sol has an 18 CHA.

If we assume they have the same wealth and have each aquired magic items they deem most necessary based upon their available monies. Further, let us assume that at level 6, each brother has two metamagic feats, one that increases a spell by one level and one that increases a spell by two levels. Finally, let us ignore cantrips for this comparison.

Wally started with 7 spells, gained 2 per level so he now has 17 in in spell book, plus any he otherwise aquired. For the sake of arguement lets say that Wally has 30 spells in his spell book, 10 of each level 1, 2 and 3, this is intended to be very generous. Because of high int he casts 4 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spell, and 3 3rd level spells each day.

When Wally sits down to fill his spell slots in the morning he has

43,200,000,000,000 (43 trillion (US))

different possibilities for his spell selection. It is entirely possible that one of those combinations is EXACTLY the perfect combination of spells for the upcoming day. Hey, there might be 5 million very nearly optimal possibilites, but he has to do his best guess right then, that morning.. While this 43 Trillion looks impressive, if Wally fills all of his spell slots for the day, he is choosing exacly one of 43 trillion possibilities.

By comparison, Sol knows 4 first level spells, 2 second level spells, and 1 third level spell. He has slots for 7 first level spells, 6 second level spells, and 4 third level spells, which seems a bit paltry by comparison. Given that he can cast spontaneously his spell casting possibilites are

1,835,352,981,504 (1.8 trillion)

The thing is, he is Mr. 1.8 trillion all day long. Wally becomes one of 43 trillion by 8am.

Now as our adventurers go on a dungeon crawl, they encounter a Lizardfolk fighter:

Wally looks good with his fireball, average damage 3.5 * 6 or 21 save for 10
Sol casts an empowered magic missle average damage 15.

If instead they encounter a slamander:

All of a sudden Wally's fireball is pretty much useless. So is his flaming sphere, and scorching ray. (If Sol has either of those spells and Energy Substitution he could energy substitue it for scorching ray (acid) or Freezing Sphere, and he could do it RIGHT THERE.)

Wally has a magic missle memorized but it is not empowered. He casts it using up his ONE for the day, 10.5 damage.
Sol casts an empowered magic missle for 15. He could have 16 more Magic Missles, 4 of which could be empowered today.

Throughout the day they use their spells, lets say they each use 2 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 2 level 3 spells. The wizard has 2 level 1 spells left, 2 level 2 spells left, and one third level spell. I hope that fireball/lightning bolt/dispel magic is exactly what you need my firend. For comparison sake, Sol still has every one of his spells available to him, 65 million different possibilites, he has seven different spells he could cast in that third level slot alone.

If we assume that each brother has exhausted all but one of his spell slots for the day, that would mean that Sol actually cast 14 spells and Wally cast 8 on that day -- sounds like Sol did more work. Anyway with one spell slot of each level left for each brother Sol still has 7 different spells to cast, and Wally has at most 3. Here Sol clearly looks like he is better able to handle something that might come up.

The biggest problem I have with sorcerers is that they too often become one trick ponies. Empowered MM is ,however, effective. So is Web +grease, so is spectal hand and shocking grasp, so is True Strike +crossbow bolts, so is sonic scorching rays.

Needless to say I think sorcerers are not underpowered as is. That does not mean that I dont think they could use a little change though.
 
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