D&D 3E/3.5 Is Sorcerer the weakest 3.5 base class now?

[Thanee]

I'm not saying that wizards aren't affected. Sure they are but sorcerers are affected even more than wizards.

I really don't see that...

Now that Eagle's Splendor is nerfed in duration, sorcerers have to give up trying to be the face of the party or use up their precious spells known to learn some other spell that could be used for non combat application (ie Charm Person or Charm Monster). This straightjackets the sorcerer completely because it adds to the growning number of situations where the sorcerer's player sits and twiddle their thumbs because they don't have the right spell for the right occassion.

Hey, there are still Cloaks (and whatnot) of Charisma!

Save DCs were generally lowered, but that doesn't mean those spells are completely useless now. And even without Eagle's Splendour, one can engage in social interactions. You won't have a super-empowered Charisma anymore, but the difference is maybe 2 points for a skill check. That doesn't make everything completely impossible all of a sudden.

Anyways, if I were to give the Sorcerer something, I'd probably grant them 4 skill points per level and possibly Eschew Materials for free at first level. Nothing big, since the class ist still good enough in my experience, but a little something for the non-combat situations mostly.

Bye
Thanee

 

[beaver1024]

I really don't see that...



Hey, there are still Cloaks (and whatnot) of Charisma!

Save DCs were generally lowered, but that doesn't mean those spells are completely useless now. And even without Eagle's Splendour, one can engage in social interactions. You won't have a super-empowered Charisma anymore, but the difference is maybe 2 points for a skill check. That doesn't make everything completely impossible all of a sudden.

Anyways, if I were to give the Sorcerer something, I'd probably grant them 4 skill points per level and possibly Eschew Materials for free at first level. Nothing big, since the class ist still good enough in my experience, but a little something for the non-combat situations mostly.

Bye
Thanee

Eagle's Splendor was only an example. The 3.0 version allowed you to multi empower it allowing a sort of scaling with level. Now past a certain level it's worthless. Take for example Invisibility. In 3.0 the sorcerer could use it to scout and spy and do other interesting things with it. Now with it's drastically shortened duration, the sorcerer either twiddle their thumbs whilst the other party members go on a stealthy romp or they give up some other spell in order to get a scouting type spell that last longer eg Clairvoyance. Again the sorcerer is straightjacketed.

 

[Nightfall]

What? No shameless plug for Blessed of Mesos? You must be slipping.

That's next week. Besides it's still the best choice for any self respecting sorcerer that doesn't mind burning a feat and waiting until 8th/10th level to get some power boosting.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Look, I believe that the sorcerer class works just fine, but I do ideas on how to make it "more balanced" (sounds like "extra medium").

I think adding just a little can help a lot. I see thread discussing how to make changes and the class is wholey different.

Here are some of my ideas:

1. Sorcerers get a 1 spell slot of the next highest spell level at the same level that wizards get their next level spell. Example, at level 5 the sorcer could cast 1 third level spell (modified by high cha) but they don't know any third level spells until level 6.

2. Sorcerers get to use their CHA bonus for skill points.

3. Starting sorcerers get a bonus feat at level 1 from the following list: eschew materials, silent spell, still spell, toughness, light armor prof, arcane preparation, one martial weapon prof.

4. One free bonus feat at levels 6, 12 and 18. This way there is an incentive to stay in the class.

As for the sorcerers being underpowerered/weakest. THAT is very much a question of the level you are playing at - at low level ( say - until level 6 ) the sorcerer's player will look on in frustration in many situations, as he cannot use any of his abilities (beyond that of any living being - interaction and advice ). After that - and increasingly so at higher levels - sorcerers can be great fun to play, simply due to the fact that they can almoist at will adapt their magic to a given situation through Meta-Magic. I don't see the double stacking of Meta-Magic being taken away as the great breaker from V3.0 to V3.5. Can be, but does not need to be. Depends very much on the player and possibly accepting that one cannot dish out obscene amounts of damage AND be extremly flexible, too. Personally, my sorcerer's tend to use the following feats - Energy Substitituion ( a must), Silent Spell, Transplanar Spell (from Unapproachable East, FR ) and Empower Spell . Many other combinations work, but these allow for a great number of applications. No Wizard is going to beat that for flexibility. Sure he can come up with something, given time, but not on the fly, when it matters most.

Still, we use a slightly amplified version of the sorcerer in our campaign which echo your ideas (and underscores that the sorcerer is definitely not overpowered ):

- Sorcerers get a free Metamagic feat at level 5, 10, 15 and 20, which helps their accentuate their metamagic-flexibility, yet allows the character to take feats which are not really sorcerer specific to help them out - "Cosmopolitan" (FR) etc. come to mind. In most campaigns that will amount to two extra feats at most for a very long stretch of gaming.

- Sorcerers also get 4+Int skillpoints per level and get two (their pick) of the following four skills as class skills: Intimidate, Gather Information, Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
Sorcerer flavour text indicates a prevalent social bias/suspicion about sorcerers - so they should be capable in/used to dealing with such problems simply through constant training (almost any ostracised minority develops such means and skills to interact with 'normal' society over a short period of time - human/sentient adaptability in action. That much as a rational explanation). This helps them acting as a social interface for their groups, without stealing a rogue's/bard's limelight. They also get two knowledges (XYZ) as a class skill - one of which can be the default (arcane), but need not be.

- As to the problem of wizards being able to expand their available slots through pearls of power, or similar items, well, why not introduce items permitting sorcerers access to certain (less commonly taken) spells - like a divinatory item allowing access to "Clairvoyance" and/or "Locate object" ? If it is possible to bind the matrix of a spell into an item, fully charged and ready to fire like is being done in wands and staves, why should it be impossible to bind the selfsame spell's matrix/lattice without the "charge", the power being supplied by the using sorcerer ? Should be a feasible concept to make sorcerers more attractive, even without changing the class itself.

- To adress the problem (?) of the 'shared' spelllist with the wizard, well we tried (successfully at that - players were happy, GMs unworried ) cutting the Evocation school from the sorcerer's list and instead added a number of spells from the druid's repertoire (weaker heals, some plant magic like 'entangle' etc. ) for a more "witchcraft" type of sorcerer - who could heal in a chinch, yet still had some blasting power through conjuration spells like "Mestil's Acid Breath" (MoF) and similar stuff. Focus would then be on transmutation, necromancy and conjuration magics. Worked fine - less of a mobile artillery piece, more witchy/shamanistic in approach




Also - the relative power of the wizard (which the sorcerer is getting measured against ) is very much a factor determined by the GM (the great arbitrator) - simply by making certain spells available or unavailable, harder to get, more expensive or simply limited to a specific region /cult /race /sex. Wizards have to get a copy of any spell before they can ever hope to cast it. And personally, I don't let a player "research" just any spell he sets his fancy on without actually spending time in-game (even if "off-screen" ) hunting for it it in a reasonable place, too. Sorcerers simply ( well - barring GM approval ) choose a spell from their available list - manifesting yet another power of their lingering innate ability. And never forget the fact, that in v3.5 you can exchange old low level spells for others of the same level later on.
Oh - and of course - spellbooks are a liabilty in many circumstances - like a sudden soaking (did anyone ever claim that 'bags of holding ' etc. are waterproof ? ), a failed save vs some nasty area effect, imprisonment, thieving henchman/consorts/hired help, or simply not having the time/opportunity to memorize up all the spells upon awakening (lets try this in a rainstorm/ hurricane/ upon being attacked at dawn etc, ). All of these never really faze a sorcerer.

As for sorcerer's having no real prestige classes to aspire to - hmmm, I very much like the "Arcane Trickster" and "Mystic Theurge" from the DMG, as well as the "Alienist" (T+B) and the revised "Spellsword"(CW) all of which work very well for a sorcerer - usually even better than with a wizard. 'Scarred Lands' classes and some from publishers other than WotC (like Green Ronin's "Shaper" from the 'Witches Handbook') offer powerful/effective alternatives to the basic sorcerer, too....

IMHO, there is no real "weakest" class - there is just too narrow a focus of a given character's concept and/or ineffective /unimaginative players who judge a character by the yield from DD spells/attacks only. Personally I really like the ability of a sorcerer to totally debuff a group of characters with severeal area effect dispel magics in a row - no damage, but can really blow combat tactics out of the window. But I have no problem in adding some extra skillpoints and a some spaced out meta-magic feats in order to make him less of a one trick pony and a drgag to play at lower levels.

 

[Darklone]

Really? Nah a Wizard doesnt really need money, does he? I mean, bracers of armor, headbands of intellilect, rings of wizrdry, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, pearls of power, staves, wands, scrolls, potions, cloaks of resistance, magical robes, and the like don't really cost that much do they? (sarcasm)

I'm sorry, but in my experience the Wizard class costs more money to maintain and equip than ANY other. BY FAR. Talk about 1 gp trinkets like torches, stakes and rope all you want. All of that stuff is pocket change for a level one character, let alone a high level character.

Truer words have never been spoken. The wizard in my group usually used up half of the groups money for wands, scrolls and scribing spells into his book (some of which he had to buy).

Many of these wands were for other group members, but still he was the one who used them and owned them (and that Mage Armour wand the monk paid didn't get used as often on the monk as on the mage).

 

[Stalker0]

After that - and increasingly so at higher levels - sorcerers can be great fun to play, simply due to the fact that they can almoist at will adapt their magic to a given situation through Meta-Magic.

When a balance argument starts assuming a feat... that's the first sign the class is underbalanced

I'm like many people in that the sorc could use a few more flavor elements mainly. I think powerwise their fine, they just need a little spice (and a reason to go past level 6 without prcing)

 

[pawsplay]

If you wanted to "jazz them up", you could give them bonus Feats other than Metamagic Feats. Maybe at 8th and 16th level, they could get their choice of Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, Spell Penetration, Improved Spell Penetration, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus, or Greater Spell Focus. Or you could rule that with less formal training, they simply get 4 skill points a level (lessening the Int gap). Or if you really like Sorcerers, both.

 

[Tzarevitch]

All this stuff is definitely very situation-dependant.

Nifft also said something, which is very true:



This is the primary difference between the classes and shows where they shine.

Wizards, that leave some spell slots open during the day, are usually extremely capable, if they have those 15 minutes to prepare.

Sorcerers are unbeatable in fast situations, where quick reacting is needed.

The sorcerer is unbeatable if he has spells that are useful in that situation. The wizard can at least swap spells if he has to, given a bit of time. The sorcerer is plain stuck if he as the wrong spells for the situation and there is NOTHING he can do about it short of scrolls, wands and staves. Add to this the fact that he is more dependent on metamagic to increase his versatility than any other spellcaster and yet gains no bonus metamagic feats. Frankly I like the sorcerer concept but it is badly designed and very neglected.

That the designers apparently arrived at the conclusion that a wizard's arcane preparation and smaller number of spells per day PLUS 4 metamagic feats, is equal in value to the sorcerer's very small list of spells that he can spontaneously cast. I disagree that that is the case.

The ability to cast a small number of spells per day lots of times is not flexible it is repetitive. A useless spell that your can cast umpteen times per day is still a useless spell. Everyone points to the example of the wizard who arrives in a situation with the wrong spells prepared. I've got news for you. The sorcerer falls prey to that FAR more often. The wizard can at least attempt to modify his spells based on the situation. Also, if you face a recurring enemy who figures out what spells you know, you are screwed because you can't change tactics.

Metamagic (particularly the Energy Substitution feat) is the sorcerer's only hope at versatilty but then the get shafted in terms of bonus feats. To top it off, the sorcerer cannot Quicken his spells either.

The wizard has the advantage of flexibility and bonus feats, the sorcerer only has repitition on his side. Honestly, I can't say what I think is needed to improve socerers compared to their arcane brethren (wizards) but something is needed. They should at least get the same bonus feats that wizards do.

Tzarevitch

 

[Thanee]

A useless spell that your can cast umpteen times per day is still a useless spell.

Might be just me, but my Sorcerers rarely learn useless spells!

Of course, I know what you mean, in some situations, you just won't have the right spell, but with a good spell selection, those situations will be extremely rare (next to non-existant) from my experience.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

Might be just me, but my Sorcerers rarely learn useless spells!

Of course, I know what you mean, in some situations, you just won't have the right spell, but with a good spell selection, those situations will be extremely rare (next to non-existant) from my experience.

True, with a wisely chosen spell list a Sorcerer will rarely have a useless spell, but this lends itself to another problem. Everytime you play a Sorcerer you play with the same spells because you naturally gravitate towards the utility/versatality of certain spells. Then there's all the useful out-of-combat spells that a Sorcerer is unlikely to take such as Divinations, some enchantments, some abjurations, etc. that are incredibly useful but will never be utilized by a Sorc. through spellcasting.

I also wanted to put out a big note of thanks for everyone sharing their thoughts on the issue! It's a bit of a controversial issue (at least what to DO with the Sorc, hehe) though everyones agrees the Sorc needs something.

My take from others responses and my own observations: As a Sorcerer progressess and achieves a larger (and more diverse, though spread at diff levels) spell list the Sorcerer reaches it's Power, but in the early levels the Sorc falters. On top of this a Sorcerer will tend towards certain given spells for most folk, for utility reasons, also making this a rather dull spellcasting class. So what to do? Well, I suppose that's a question better left to the hosue rules forum. As for what changes to make I prefer to make only a few simple changes to the Sorc.

Again, thanks to al!