D&D 3E/3.5 Is Sorcerer the weakest 3.5 base class now?

[Thanee]

But if a sorcerer has only one useful spell for that event he can cast it as much as he want. The wizard who has only one useful spell can only cast it once.

Absolutely.

And that is a great weakness of the wizard. Unless you can see in the futur the wizard spell selection will never be optimal. Wizard lover will tell me yes but I can leave spot open. Yeah it Takes 15 minutes to study.

I have played both wizard and sorcerer, and my wizard usually had a lot of spell slots open (1-2 of each level!) and later used up a few of 6th level slots for Mordenkainen's Lucubration (as well as having some Pearls of Power handy).

This way, you can do some tricks with even a single useful spell prepared.

But as I said earlier, the sorcerer is much better in those situations, were a quick reaction is needed. The wizard, however, shines, when the 15 minutes preparation time are available.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Stalker0]

I think people are still arguing the power standpoint... I'm still about the flavor myself.

For the wizard... hmm maybe I'll get that tenser's floating disk spell next, or maybe explosive runes. Hmm so many to choose, maybe I can borrow some money and then get them both!!!

Sorc: Fireball, fireball, fly, fly, fly. And another resist elements for me whoopee.

Wiz: Alright 2 new 4th level spells!! And now I can research a couple more!!

Sorc: Sigh, one more level till those 4th level spellls..... one 4th level spell.

Wiz: Alright, a new bonus feat!!! Hmm, maybe I'll try some item creation this time... although an extend metamagic could be useful.

Sorc: Sigh, Fireball, fireball, fly, fly, fly. And another resist elements for me whoopee.


Sure in combat the sorc gets it done... and sure in combat like situations like scouting he can still get it done. Spontaneous casting is great, and your right his spells never go to waste. But casting those same spells over and over can get old... and there's not much to look forward to at higher levels.

 

[apsuman]

The thing that rubs me the wrong way about the sorcerer is that they actually know fewer spells at some levels than a bard at higher levels. At least it was that way in 3.0.

Adding some level 1 and level 2 spells known would not be game braking IMHO as the sorcerer progresses

As for flavor, when a sorcerer goes get a untility spell, they have to use it over and over and over because they have so few of them. The good news is that you just don't know exactly how many ways there are to use a web spell until the sorcerer has it in their repetory.

 

[Thanee]

Stalker0, it's a bit better now in 3.5, since the sorcerer can swap one spell every other level.

And wizards tend to use very similar spell selections most of the time, at least in my experience, altho they always have all the options available to them, of course.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DarkMaster]

I think people are still arguing the power standpoint... I'm still about the flavor myself.

For the wizard... hmm maybe I'll get that tenser's floating disk spell next, or maybe explosive runes. Hmm so many to choose, maybe I can borrow some money and then get them both!!!.

Floating disk for a sorcerer? Like I said before the sorcerer is the arcane caster that you want to have with you while adventuring, the wizard is more a intellectual, research type of guy. I work in software development and I could compare the sorcerer as the private developer that works in the real world and produce software for real client with real money involved, the wizard is more the Ph.D guy who research all kind of useless weird stuff at university. He knows much better about magic but when it comes time to actually work under pressure and produce stable design he sucks. They always have to weird concept that works very well in their environement but when their applyed to production they fail miserably.

The sorcerer knows fireball, he knows it works, he use it, he got results, why bother. The wizard knows the spell but might use something else because he didn't study today or because he wants to try something new (I have such a wide selection of spell why not try them all) he is not very good under pressure) didn't study that spell, give me 15 minutes and I will be back. But we need it NOW!!!).

Wizard are good for researching new spell and new magic object. They are greatly needed otherwise magic would not evolve.

Sorc: Fireball, fireball, fly, fly, fly. And another resist elements for me whoopee.

Wiz: Alright 2 new 4th level spells!! And now I can research a couple more!!

Sorc: Sigh, one more level till those 4th level spellls..... one 4th level spell.

Wiz: Alright, a new bonus feat!!! Hmm, maybe I'll try some item creation this time... although an extend metamagic could be useful.

Sorc: Sigh, Fireball, fireball, fly, fly, fly. And another resist elements for me whoopee.

It works 95% of the time (especially with metamagic) why bother

As for the bonus feat mostly used for item creation, which the sorcerer is not made for.

Sure in combat the sorc gets it done... and sure in combat like situations like scouting he can still get it done. Spontaneous casting is great, and your right his spells never go to waste. But casting those same spells over and over can get old... and there's not much to look forward to at higher levels.

Depends, the sorcerer in my group seems to have more fun putting asleep 10 orcs and saving the party then researching Tenser's floating disk, guess it is a matter of taste.

 

[Tzarevitch]

But if a sorcerer has only one useful spell for that event he can cast it as much as he want. The wizard who has only one useful spell can only cast it once.

And that is a great weakness of the wizard. Unless you can see in the futur the wizard spell selection will never be optimal. Wizard lover will tell me yes but I can leave spot open. Yeah it Takes 15 minutes to study.

Ok the barbarian Ogre are running on us.
Group run away get in front of a wall with an escape hole 100 meter high
Wizard: sorry guys I only have one fly spell good luck with them, bye bye
or worse wait I need to study more fly spell for everybody,
Barbarian: How long will it takes, they will be here in 30 seconds.
Wizard: Heuuuuu, 15 ..... minutes.

Here is a better example:

Party is attacked by a legion of ghouls while fleeing the necromancer's sanctum.
Sorcerer: I'll fireball 'em.

After blowing away the ghouls, that same sorcerer when later confronted with a held door while trying to flee the same samctum.
Sorcerer: Uhhhh....... I'll fireball it.

That same sorcerer who now confronted with the necromancer in his prismatic sphere who is blocking the only way out.
Sorcerer: I cast fireb..... Crap! Run for it.

Yes the wizard spell selection will frequently not be optimal, but he can fix that with 14 minutes and an open slot (or 1 round if he is a member of the Arcane ORder). A sorcerer's spell selection is every bit as unlikely to be optimal because he knows even fewer of them AND he can only swap out 1 every couple of levels or so.

A sorcerer is only flexible in the sense that he can cast one of the limited spells he knows with any slot of that level or higher. That is a very limited tactical flexibility because the only result it produces is to allow you to cast MORE of a particular spell. That is not flexible, that is repetitive.

The wizard is the truly flexible one because his entire spell list is flexible and he gets bonus feats too. The sorcerers too-small spell selection and inability to change them in any useful fashion means that most sorcerers tend to take similar spells in an attempt to get the ones that have the greatest benefit when cast lots of times because that is what the sorcerer does - cast a few spells lots of times. My argument again is that the sorcerer's ability to cast the same spells lots of times is NOT an equal match for the wizard's flexibility AND bonus feats as the game designers have decided. I think my point is made farily clear by the fact that so many people house-rule sorcerers to give them greater benefits.

Tzarevitch

 

[DarkMaster]

From my experience flexibility is good if you can read the futur.
like tawnee was saying most of the time the wizard will study the same set of "optimised spell" technically being a lesser version of a sorcerer.

following you example about the necromancer.

Sorcerer Ok fireball doesn't work let's try dispel magic until it works. wizard : Dispel magic, fails , oups no more dispel magic.

and trust me a sorcerer that meets someone casting prismatic sphere has much more powerfull spell than fireball.

I guess it shows that I don't like wizard too much .

My vision of a fantasy arcane caster is the sorcerer. Highly charismatic, a real master of magic, that doesn't depend on anything to cast. I hate that spell book and study thing, make the wizard ill suited for adventure.

 

[Epametheus]

Here is a better example:

Party is attacked by a legion of ghouls while fleeing the necromancer's sanctum.
Sorcerer: I'll fireball 'em.

After blowing away the ghouls, that same sorcerer when later confronted with a held door while trying to flee the same samctum.
Sorcerer: Uhhhh....... I'll fireball it.

That same sorcerer who now confronted with the necromancer in his prismatic sphere who is blocking the only way out.
Sorcerer: I cast fireb..... Crap! Run for it.

Tzarevitch

If the best thing the sorcerer can cast is fireball and the party's up against someone that can cast Prismatic Sphere, then they'd be dead no matter what. The sorcerer being a wizard wouldn't change that.

On the other hand, a high-level sorcerer might be able to cast Teleport enough times to ferry the entire party out of the sanctum.

 

[Tzarevitch]

If the best thing the sorcerer can cast is fireball and the party's up against someone that can cast Prismatic Sphere, then they'd be dead no matter what. The sorcerer being a wizard wouldn't change that.

Not necessarily. A wizard could back off and take 15 minutes to slot in the correct spells to take apart the sphere. If the bad guy comes out after you, so much the better because he has left his protection. The fireball was just an example. Make it D-B Fireball to make the levels closer and the sorcerer still can't get through it without magical devices to help him.

On the other hand, a high-level sorcerer might be able to cast Teleport enough times to ferry the entire party out of the sanctum.

Which assumes that the bad guy for some reason has failed to properly protect his sanctum vs teleportation. If teleport is blocked or the sanctum has earthbound effects (thus negating another sorcerer staple - fly) or the opponent takes precautions such as properly layering defenses, it is not terribly hard to defend against the sorcerer.

Maybe it is just me, but I have gamed with a DM for years who uses very nasty encounters and layered defenses. Our wizard typically carried up to half of his slots empty and we'd spend time stopping to allow him time to slot in the next spell. (Since I was the cleric I used the time to cast protection spells and heal the injured.)

One area we needed to enter had an entrance that was underground (requiring Move Earth or whatever that spell was called) to get to a tunnel that was 2' square (requiring him to baleful polymorph the larger PC) then passwall to get through a solid blockage to the door and then rusting grasp to eat through the siding on the door because we couldn't knock it open because the door was too big. Note the party wizard had NONE of those spells memorized that day.

Tzarevitch

 

[DarkMaster]

Not necessarily. A wizard could back off and take 15 minutes to slot in the correct spells to take apart the sphere. If the bad guy comes out after you, so much the better because he has left his protection. The fireball was just an example. Make it D-B Fireball to make the levels closer and the sorcerer still can't get through it without magical devices to help him.



Which assumes that the bad guy for some reason has failed to properly protect his sanctum vs teleportation. If teleport is blocked or the sanctum has earthbound effects (thus negating another sorcerer staple - fly) or the opponent takes precautions such as properly layering defenses, it is not terribly hard to defend against the sorcerer.

Maybe it is just me, but I have gamed with a DM for years who uses very nasty encounters and layered defenses. Our wizard typically carried up to half of his slots empty and we'd spend time stopping to allow him time to slot in the next spell. (Since I was the cleric I used the time to cast protection spells and heal the injured.)

One area we needed to enter had an entrance that was underground (requiring Move Earth or whatever that spell was called) to get to a tunnel that was 2' square (requiring him to baleful polymorph the larger PC) then passwall to get through a solid blockage to the door and then rusting grasp to eat through the siding on the door because we couldn't knock it open because the door was too big. Note the party wizard had NONE of those spells memorized that day.

Tzarevitch

Desintegrate multiple time wouldn't have solved the problem?