D&D 3E/3.5 Is Sorcerer the weakest 3.5 base class now?

[Amal Shukup]

I can't tell you about my experiences playing a Sorceror across 10 levels, because that's NEVER gonna happen. Not with multiclassing and Prestige classes providing so much more bang for the buck. I have played a Wizard for 12 Levels in one campaign and a Sorceror through 7 levels in another (Fighter 1/Sorceror 7).

The Wizard is a complete monster. He spends a lot of time and money learning spells (slowed a bit of late on account of increased campaign tempo, but still - lots).

- Makes LOTS of scrolls for those 'don't need em often, but need em RIGHT NOW' spells

- Other Scrolls for the wierd stuff he 'might need someday'

- Manufactures a selection of wands for 'need 'em all the time' spells that don't offer saves (buffing + MM principally)

- Saves his slots for the big attack Spells that offer saves

- Leaves a few slots open for in the field adaptability and has Spell Mastery to make sure he can still dish it out if he loses his books (shudder).

Never seems to be caught without the spell he needs, when he needs it. More than enough damage dealing potential - I just don't run out of capacity during a day of campaigning. Flexibility can't be over-rated: Enemy Fighter? Hold Monster/Person, or Dominate. Bad guy Rogue? Illusions are fun. Evil Wizard? Enervation. The enemy Cleric? Ray of Enfeeblement, or just pile on the damage spells.

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In contrast, my Sorceror is an effective ranged combatant. He knows a handful of Spells that are used primarily to buff himself (and other party members). There are a few damage dealing staples for when he wants to sling spells. Nowhere near enough Known Spells to take advantage of enemy weaknesses.

He WAS a bit of a monster in 3.0 because he has fabulous stats (luck o' the die), because Haste multiplied his effectiveness as a combatant and as a Spellcaster, and because Extend Spell made his buffs go a long way

With those options gone (no objection from me - I wholeheartedly endorse the vast majority of 3.5's changes!) he is a very second rate spellcaster with some second rate combat abilities. Sure, he has lots of slots, but combats don't last that long anyway, so he typically retires for the evening with lots of unused spells. He can't get as much mileage out of Scrolls and Wands because he can't make them himself (and why bother when he can already cast THOSE spells as often as he needs to.)

He is going Eldritch Knight with the next level up, which will improve things, but in the meantime he's coasting on reputation.

 

[jgsugden]

My problems with Sorcerers, after playing one into the low teens is not with their power, but rather their flavor.

They're not all that different than Wizards. The person that described them as Wizards with training wheels is on the mark.

Are fighters and barbarians that different? The two mage classes share a spell list, but beyond that, I think they're very different, especially from the perspective of how you strategically use them.

Yes, they cast the same spells, but sorcerers can afford to use a lot of spells to get an effect while a wizard has to be more selective.

As an example: if a group of PCs comes across an arcane locked adamantine door, a sorcerer may be able to afford to use polymorph or gaseous form on the entire party to get them past it. A wizard, OTOH, may need to retreat and prepare knock.

In my experience, playing a sorcerer is considerably different than playing a wizard. They do use the same tools, but fighters, barbarians, rogues and paladins all use the same weapons and feats as each other and few people seem hung up on their similarities. How each class uses the tools that it has at hand is a huge part of the identity of the class.

 

[DarkMaster]

- Makes LOTS of scrolls for those 'don't need em often, but need em RIGHT NOW' spells

- Other Scrolls for the wierd stuff he 'might need someday'

This kind of contradict "LOTS" of scroll for those "RIGHT NOW" situation. I guess your wizard has implemented a hell of a DEWEY system to retrieve the right scroll amongt the 100 he created in less than 1 or 2 second (Longer than that I doubt you can cast it in the same round. My player don't rely on scroll for RIGHT NOW casting. they learned that unless the scroll is really quickly accessible they won't be able to cast it in the next few rounds. I remember having the sorcerer going in the bag of holding to find a particular scroll amongt the 12 they had collected. It took him 5 round to find it, by the time he was ready to cast the fight was over with the Dwarf fighter unconscious.

Same thing with selection of wand, I usually allow my player to carry a very limited amount of wand, rod or staff.

also when you say: Enemy Fighter? Hold Monster/Person, or Dominate. Bad guy Rogue? Illusions are fun. Evil Wizard? Enervation. The enemy Cleric? Ray of Enfeeblement, or just pile on the damage spells. The sorcerer can be built with the equivalent so no point here.

also when you say

he is a very second rate spellcaster with some second rate combat abilities. Sure, he has lots of slots, but combats don't last that long anyway, so he typically retires for the evening with lots of unused spells.

I guess your DM don't put more than a fight a day. Usually when their in a dungeon my player go through a lot before they can rest ( I love to pressure them )

Like I said both have their advantages and depend on the DM style of play. In my world wizard are poorer adventurer than sorcerer. Sorcerer are very rare though and wizard are witchunting them (basically because they are jaleaous) but that is another story

 

[jgsugden]

In contrast, my Sorceror is an effective ranged combatant. He knows a handful of Spells that are used primarily to buff himself (and other party members). There are a few damage dealing staples for when he wants to sling spells. Nowhere near enough Known Spells to take advantage of enemy weaknesses.

... Sure, he has lots of slots, but combats don't last that long anyway, so he typically retires for the evening with lots of unused spells. He can't get as much mileage out of Scrolls and Wands because he can't make them himself (and why bother when he can already cast THOSE spells as often as he needs to.)

He is going Eldritch Knight with the next level up, which will improve things, but in the meantime he's coasting on reputation.

If you're ending up with a lot of extra spells at the end of the day, you're not being efficient. Try learning/casting some 'precombat' type spells like defensive spells, buff spells or summon monster spells.

A very low level sorcerer does not know enough spells to have something for every situation. That doesn't really get going until 10th level or so, but you should have effective spells for *most* situations. My current sorcerere, when he was a 7th level sorcerer, had magic missile, shield, protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement, acid arrow, invisibility, SM II, fireball and haste. He managed to use up almost all his non-0 level spells by the end of the 4th battle of the day (the point at which we usually rested). If they were attacked while resting, he made use of his wands (lightning bolt, SM I and grease). During his entire career (with the exceptions of levels 1 and 2), he has felt useless only once, and that was due to a role playing situation (where the party told me to keep an artifact safe while they dealt with the creature searching for it ... but even in that situation, I was summoning monsters and sending them in to help, a bit.)

A well used wizard is significantly more powerful that a sorcerer that fails to use its full potential. But a well used sorcerer is also far more powerful than a wizard that fails to use its full potential, too.

 

[apsuman]

I can't tell you about my experiences playing a Sorceror across 10 levels, because that's NEVER gonna happen. Not with multiclassing and Prestige classes providing so much more bang for the buck. I have played a Wizard for 12 Levels in one campaign and a Sorceror through 7 levels in another (Fighter 1/Sorceror 7).

The Wizard is a complete monster. He spends a lot of time and money learning spells (slowed a bit of late on account of increased campaign tempo, but still - lots).

- Makes LOTS of scrolls for those 'don't need em often, but need em RIGHT NOW' spells

- Other Scrolls for the wierd stuff he 'might need someday'

- Manufactures a selection of wands for 'need 'em all the time' spells that don't offer saves (buffing + MM principally)

- Saves his slots for the big attack Spells that offer saves

- Leaves a few slots open for in the field adaptability and has Spell Mastery to make sure he can still dish it out if he loses his books (shudder).

Never seems to be caught without the spell he needs, when he needs it. More than enough damage dealing potential - I just don't run out of capacity during a day of campaigning. Flexibility can't be over-rated: Enemy Fighter? Hold Monster/Person, or Dominate. Bad guy Rogue? Illusions are fun. Evil Wizard? Enervation. The enemy Cleric? Ray of Enfeeblement, or just pile on the damage spells.

_________________________________
In contrast, my Sorceror is an effective ranged combatant. He knows a handful of Spells that are used primarily to buff himself (and other party members). There are a few damage dealing staples for when he wants to sling spells. Nowhere near enough Known Spells to take advantage of enemy weaknesses.

He WAS a bit of a monster in 3.0 because he has fabulous stats (luck o' the die), because Haste multiplied his effectiveness as a combatant and as a Spellcaster, and because Extend Spell made his buffs go a long way

With those options gone (no objection from me - I wholeheartedly endorse the vast majority of 3.5's changes!) he is a very second rate spellcaster with some second rate combat abilities. Sure, he has lots of slots, but combats don't last that long anyway, so he typically retires for the evening with lots of unused spells. He can't get as much mileage out of Scrolls and Wands because he can't make them himself (and why bother when he can already cast THOSE spells as often as he needs to.)

He is going Eldritch Knight with the next level up, which will improve things, but in the meantime he's coasting on reputation.

No offense, but taking a sorcerer that was optimized for 3.0 and dropping them into 3.5 can not lead to the best of experiences.

It is my experience that sorcerers are not one trick ponies but rather three or four trick ponies. But they are impressive tricks.

And as for the scrolls and wands for the sorcerer no sorcerer would have scrolls/wands of spells of spells that they know. They would only have scrolls/wands of spells they don't know.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Desintegrate multiple time wouldn't have solved the problem?

After it reflected the first one back at the caster no one really wanted to try it again. We suspected that it was Wondrous Architecture that had a recycling spell-turning effect on it. It could reflect targeted spells but not touch spells.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

No offense, but taking a sorcerer that was optimized for 3.0 and dropping them into 3.5 can not lead to the best of experiences.

It is my experience that sorcerers are not one trick ponies but rather three or four trick ponies. But they are impressive tricks.

And as for the scrolls and wands for the sorcerer no sorcerer would have scrolls/wands of spells of spells that they know. They would only have scrolls/wands of spells they don't know.

I agree 100%. As has been said, the wizard can take the time to make scrolls and wands of spells he doesn't need often thereby obviating one of his weaknesses. The sorcerer can't even do that to help himself out because as you said he can already cast spells he knows a lot of times. If he knows the spell he doesn't need wands or scrolls with more of it.

As you pointed out, the sorcerer has a much narrower range of tricks. Yes they are impressive if they work, but he can't change them if they don't work. Lest anyone get me wrong, I like sorcerers. The problem I have is that the base class needs something to make it better and actually different from its cousin the wizard.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

I think no one mentioned that Sorcerors can buy Scrolls ?

I have a nice collection of scrolls... low, middle and high powered to cover those things my spells can't. Haven't used many of them yet in fact. High level sorcerors have a versatile spell list in their own "limited" way.

That is not much help for comparison because anyone with enough Use Magic Device can buy and use scrolls/wands/staves.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

Also if it is that well guarded how can the wizard take 15 minutes to study spell. In my campaign 15 minutes can be the difference between life and death

I don't recall saying anything about it being well guarded. It was a ruin we were excavating. Besides we had 40 4th-8th level ogre fighters in our employ. The ogres (led by their 10th level fighter commander) erected the base camp and guarded the area while the wizard cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and re-studied spells.

Tzarevitch

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, it's exactly on target. Sorcerors and wizards both have to rely upon items for something. Wizards rely upon items for power (wands of spells they use all the time) and versatility (scrolls of spells they don't prepare but might need). Since wizards all have scribe scroll, it's generally assumed that they can cover the weaknesses of their limited spell preparations with scrolls of the spells that they know but rarely need to use.

Sorcerors, OTOH, rarely need to rely upon items for power but sometimes (less and less as they increase in level), need items if they are to have the same versatility as a wizard. The only difference is they buy those items and wizards often make them.

Comparing wizards to sorcerors and allowing wizards to use scrolls for versatility (assuming, of course, that the wizard can aquire scrolls and spellbooks to expand his repertoire so as to be able to make those scrolls) and wands for power without allowing sorcerors to purchase such items for flexibility is as reasonable comparing barbarians and rogues in a zombie killing contest.

That is not much help for comparison because anyone with enough Use Magic Device can buy and use scrolls/wands/staves.

Tzarevitch