D&D 3E/3.5 Is Sorcerer the weakest 3.5 base class now?

[Thanee]

Polymorph into Umber Hulk then burrow down, polymorph the too-large-person into something smaller, if still necessary, then polymorph into a Treant to beat down the blockage (hopefully under a silence spell cast by the Cleric ), if the Umber Hulk can't get through.

But yes, a wizard is better in such a situation, the sorcerer needs a lot of foresight (when selecting spells) to have a very adaptable spell list.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DarkMaster]

Polymorph into Umber Hulk then burrow down, polymorph the too-large-person into something smaller, if still necessary, then polymorph into a Treant to beat down the blockage (hopefully under a silence spell cast by the Cleric ), if the Umber Hulk can't get through.

But yes, a wizard is better in such a situation, the sorcerer needs a lot of foresight (when selecting spells) to have a very adaptable spell list.

Bye
Thanee

Also if it is that well guarded how can the wizard take 15 minutes to study spell. In my campaign 15 minutes can be the difference between life and death

 

[Thanee]

Which assumes that the bad guy for some reason has failed to properly protect his sanctum vs teleportation.

I would rate blocking teleport at a pretty high magnitude, not really something every baddie has available.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DarkMaster]

Also if it is that well guarded how can the wizard take 15 minutes to study spell. In my campaign 15 minutes can be the difference between life and death

And what about: what do we need ? ok give me the required money, teleport to the nearest magic shop, buy the stuff, teleport back, give the rogue the stuff and lets go, then when time permits teleport back to the shop sell non required items, teleport back .

We could go on and on.. my point is, as mentioned above, the sorcerer is more the hands on guy that you need in the field, the wizard is more usuful on very highly specific case, where there is not too much pressure, that is where the wizard shine.
I prefer the mysterious, dangerous, with a strong personality type of caster, than the mister know-it-all nerd.

But that is just my opinion, it is not a fact

 

[Plane Sailing]

Unless a wizard has some means of gaining new spells outside the class, he learns (on average) the same number of spells as a sorcerer after about 6th level IIRC.

The wizard learns 2 spells for free per level. The sorcerer learns 1 spell every even level and 3 spells every odd level for most of his adventuring career.

So how might a wizard gain more spells? He doesn't have the clerics incredible ability to know everything on the list, so it must be stuff found in treasure - scrolls or enemy spellbooks. Well, news to Tzarevitch, the sorcerer could use the scrolls, the sorcerer could sell the spellbook and purchase scrolls...

I'm astonished that Tsarevitch is wearing such blinkers... it is not as if people are saying "sorcerer rules, wizards suck", they are merely saying "sorcerers don't suck, and here is a number of ways in which that is true". I suppose if someone has made their mind up to the extent that they are unlikely to ever change it, there may not be much point in continuing discussion (although I like hearing about the way that other people have tackled various situations... and some of the examples are plain funny!)

Cheers

 

[Rashak Mani]

I think no one mentioned that Sorcerors can buy Scrolls ?

I have a nice collection of scrolls... low, middle and high powered to cover those things my spells can't. Haven't used many of them yet in fact. High level sorcerors have a versatile spell list in their own "limited" way.

 

[jgsugden]

I think no one mentioned that Sorcerors can buy Scrolls ?

I have a nice collection of scrolls... low, middle and high powered to cover those things my spells can't. Haven't used many of them yet in fact. High level sorcerors have a versatile spell list in their own "limited" way.

People have mentioned this. Most people tend to ignore it.

Out of curiosity, how many people that have played a sorcerer for 10 or more levels feel that a sorcerer is underpowered? If you do, let's hear some stories as evidence of this lack of power for a sorcerer over a 10 level span ...

 

[Stalker0]

Desintegrate multiple time wouldn't have solved the problem?

But see, now your assuming a sorc would have that spell. Another one of my flavor problems with the sorc is the keyhole he gets put into.

If I want to play a certain kind of wizard, I can always add in that needed spell if necessary later. Some sorcs are stuck... either forced to leave his party without a key spell or not keep getting teh spells for his chosen concept.

As for the scroll argument... I agree sorcs can have scrolls for certain spells. But then ironcially the wizard and sorc switch places.

Let's say the sorc doesn't have disintegrate, so he gets a scroll of it (which isn't the cheapest thing in the world).

Party: Hmm, looks like we're going to need to disintegrate all of this rock to make it through.
Sorc: Well... I have one disintegrate.
Wiz: I have one disintegrate prepared, but give me 15 min and I'll get 2 more.

For the argument that sorcs get as many spells as wizards, at higher levels they do learn as many, but they are of a lower level. And a wizard can always get more. We have to assume a standard campaign where buying scrolls and learning spells for the wizard is an option.

That's part of the "coolness" factor of the wizard, they can always expand their repatior, and try new spells... or they can prepare alot of the same spells and work on maximising their flexibility like teh sorc does. Or he can make tons of items, or he can use lots of metamagic feats. Sorcs get a few spells and try to make the most of them. That's fun... but that's the only way a sorc can go, and I believe they should get a little more flexibility than that.

 

[Unseelie]

People have mentioned this. Most people tend to ignore it.

Out of curiosity, how many people that have played a sorcerer for 10 or more levels feel that a sorcerer is underpowered? If you do, let's hear some stories as evidence of this lack of power for a sorcerer over a 10 level span ...

My problems with Sorcerers, after playing one into the low teens is not with their power, but rather their flavor.

They're not all that different than Wizards. The person that described them as Wizards with training wheels is on the mark. They're great NPCs though. Less for the DM to have to keep track of in play, and being CHA based, they make a great candidate for Leadership.

The next time I run a game, I will be making a number of changes to Sorcerers, but only one will really effect their power (I think).

1) A couple of more CHA skills. They're CHA based, so they should get a little more mileage out of it.

2) Remove Knowledge Arcana, I don't think it fits.

3) Eschew Materials at 1st level

4) Modify spell lists to remove spells that require expensive components. (ie. they don't get Identify, etc.)

5) Domain Spells - Dragon a few issues back had Bloodlines, which were effectively Domains for Sorcerers. I would compile a list of Domains for Sorcerers in my game. I wouldn't require a feat to get them though. Effectively, they would get one more spell per spell level, but that list would be set at the beginning of play.

 

[DarkMaster]

That's part of the "coolness" factor of the wizard, they can always expand their repatior, and try new spells... or they can prepare alot of the same spells and work on maximising their flexibility like teh sorc does. Or he can make tons of items, or he can use lots of metamagic feats. Sorcs get a few spells and try to make the most of them. That's fun... but that's the only way a sorc can go, and I believe they should get a little more flexibility than that.

I guess is all a matter of taste. I see advantages on both sides but I feel the adveturer sorcerer fits more the type of campaign I am running.