Is Speed Useful?

[mvincent]

My parties strive to go as many battles as possible without resting because I reward that behavior. 10 rounds will be gone half way through the second battle and they could easily run 5 battles in a day. Two boots wouldn't last through the end of the fourth battle.

Ah. Well, that is non-typical. How do the spellcasters fair?

Average is 4 battles a day, with about three rounds of actual combat per battle (that seems quick, but these are relatively easy encounters of CR equal to your level). A player would likely only use his boots 2/3rds of the time (1/3rd if very conservative).

Also, most groups have no problem with resting for a day when running low on resources (because it doesn't take up any real time) .

Not to mention that they probably will want to change them out if only a round or two was left for the day.

That's why mithral full-plate of speed is better than a second pair of boots. Alternately, you can stack magical abilites on slotted items for +50% cost (so a pair of boots that lasted 20 rnds total would be 12k gp + 18k gp).

Since haste changes some many stats, limited use boots are mostly just a meta-game pain due to recalculations. My solution to that was getting multiple boots to justify hard-coding the stat modifications on your character sheet. This may not work for all groups, but your characters could always take the opportunity to sleep more often.

I can only see speed being beneficially for specific purposes where protracted combat is expected (like for military uses in large battles). A ballista or automatic crossbow of speed on a city wall during a siege seems perfectly useful.

 

[Dracorat]

Ah. Well, that is non-typical. How do the spellcasters fair?

Pretty good actually. I do use the spell-point variant, so they get a little extra flexibility. But overall, they will not throw out willy-nilly fireballs, etc, if they don't have to. They rely a little more on the fighters to pick off the foes they beleive to be near dead status and take pot-shots with their bows.

Also, most groups have no problem with resting for a day when running low on resources (because it doesn't take up any real time) .

Mine do. They receive extra XP after their fifth battle without rest (ten percent no-rest bonus) and they gain Action Points for every battle they win, but those points go away when they rest.

Since haste changes some many stats, limited use boots are mostly just a meta-game pain due to recalculations. My solution to that was getting multiple boots to justify hard-coding the stat modifications on your character sheet. This may not work for all groups, but your characters could always take the opportunity to sleep more often.

As a DM, I would require a player to record how many round occurred between rests for a couple of sessions before I made a decision on how many were sufficient to be allowed as 'always on for combat'. But otherwise, I tend to allow such extrapolation.

I can only see speed being beneficially for specific purposes where protracted combat is expected (like for military uses in large battles). A ballista or automatic crossbow of speed on a city wall during a siege seems perfectly useful.

Or, if we want to get all meta-gamey about it, it makes for good vendor trash too. =)

 

[Krel]

Can you enhance a suit of mithral full plate of speed? To make it say +5 Mithral Full Plate of Speed? If so, how much would it cost?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Can you enhance a suit of mithral full plate of speed? To make it say +5 Mithral Full Plate of Speed? If so, how much would it cost?

At DM's discretion. Some people don't like doing that, but my group does stuff like that all the time.

Typically, if you're going to do that, you'll just factor out the cost of the mithral armor and existing enchantments, and voila, cost of the of Speed ability.

Brad

 

[mvincent]

Can you enhance a suit of mithral full plate of speed? To make it say +5 Mithral Full Plate of Speed?

Per the 3.5 FAQ:
"a DM willing to allow leeway in item creation
could allow a character to upgrade such an item’s capabilities,
using the same guidelines as for improving any other item."

Note that a few of the named armors can clearly be improved (elven chain, mithral shirt, dwarven plate, etc.)

But even if a DM disallowed it, your cleric could always just cast magic vestments on it. A 14th level cleric with a bead of karma, orange ioun stone and death knell can make it +5 for 20 hours each day... same with the rest of the party's weapons, shields, etc.. A rod of extend can make this last for 40 hours... allowing you to buff days before an adventure, so the cleric can easily regain his spells

If so, how much would it cost?

Same as improving any other +1 armor to +5

 

[nobodez]

The only way I know of getting more then one additional attack (as from haste, righteous wrath of the faithful, or a weapon of speed), is from either the Dancing Mongoose boost or the Raging Mongoose boost from ToB:Bo9S. The DM grants up to two extra attacks (if you have two or more weapons), and is a 5th level maneuver requiring two other Tiger Claw maneuvers. The RM is 8th, allows four extra attacks (two per weapon), and requires three Tiger Claw maneuvers. To get this from one magic item requires the expenditure of 76,500 gp (A master Tiger Claw Bracer with one Scholar, and two novice additions), though you'll have a total of four Tiger Claw maneuvers, and you'd have to be at least 15th level to get the full effect.

The single extra attack each round for one round each day is only 39,000 gp and you get DM along with two other maneuvers.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to have an artificer at the table, he can just smack down a Weapon Augmentation and add the Speed ability for 10 minutes/level. Or any other combination of a total of +3 enhancements, including the aforementioned elementals, alignments, banes, and other assorted goodies.

(Balanced and Proficient are a personal favorite of mine, esp. on Large Light Repeating Crossbow).

 

[two]

How awful is Speed? THIS awful

Here is a quick rundown on why Speed for a weapon sucks so bad.

All the assumptions in the following help the Speed weapon user.

Let's rule leniently that Speed on a weapon STACKS with haste.

At a level where this matters, let's have our two fighters doing 4 attacks a round (when hasted). One uses a Speed weapon (+1 Speed longsword). One uses a +1 Holy Screaming Longsword. (let's assume the "screaming" only does 2 sonic points of damage on average).

How often do full attacks happen?

Let's say, leniently, 50% of the time. The actual number is lower, but let's stick with this.

How often does the first strike of a high end fighter hit? Let's call it 90%.

Let's say this fighter does 40 points of AVERAGE damage per blow. (this is HUGE but, let's do it).

The speed weapon thus does, per round, 40 point * 50% (full attack ratio) * 90% (it hits) = 18 points of damage per round additional.

(this fighter gets 5 atttacks instead of 4, and all the additional damage is from the extra attack)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What is the Holy Screaming guy doing?

Let's say both fighter hit 90%, 90%, 60%, 40% for the 4 attacks. (the additional haste attack is at the same bonus as the highest attack).

Let's also figure out how often the high level fighters are fighting things that are evil. I'd say 90% minimum.

So the Holy, Sonic longsword is doing 7 (holy) + 2 (sonic) additional per attack 90% of the time.

Additional damage is:


Attack1: 7 * .9 (evil foe) * .9 (strike hits) = 5.5 roughly.
Attack2: same 5.5 roughly.
Attack3: roughly 3.5
Attack4: roughly 2.5

TOTAL: 17 points of damage (additional).

Notice that this is essentially the same as the Speed weapon.

But it gets better!

If even 10% of your opponents have DR that is overcome only by Good-aligned weapons... like, you know, demons, devils, and a host of others, the "HOLY" enchantment absolutely destroys the speed enchantment. Crushes it.

+++++++++

Note that this assumes Speed stacks with Haste. Which it does not.

Also that the average damage of a blow is 40! That is VERY high.

Speed is HORRIBLE.

Because you need to get through DR MORE often as levels rise... SPEED becomes even less useful... and Holy even better.

It's really a horrible waste.

 

[Felix]

It's really a horrible waste.

Unless the wielder of the Speed weapon gains extra damage dice from some ability (eg: Sneak Attack) and an extra attack will apply that damage.

That's when it would be more useful, but I agree that otherwise there are better enchantments.

 

[Shadeus]

I gave the applicable portion earlier, but here is the full answer:
"The description for the speed weapon property says it is
not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this
applies in the game seems unclear, especially when two
weapons of speed are involved. Can you use two speed
weapons at the same time? What, exactly, is meant when
the rules say haste and speed don’t stack? Does it mean you
can use the speed property during the normal portion of
your turn, but not during the “extra” partial action you get
from haste?

*snip*

Ah, thank you. Well, aside from the obvious rule changes (haste doesn't grant an extra partial), the FAQ indicates it shouldn't stack. In my opinion, speed is weak enough that it could stack if you use two weapon fighting.

 

[Dracorat]

That's 3.0 rules you are quoting. Haste and speed have changed.