Is sunder _this_ easy?

[index]

Sorry. "Go play GURPS" seems rather snide, doesn't it? (Though I would be estatic if I could find any local GURPS players.)

Why do the opposed attack rolls apply to sundering a weapon or shield, but you merely need a normal attack roll against 10 + size mod + DEX mod for carried or worn items? It seems to me that it would be even more difficult to attack an object that's not presumably waving in your face. The basic difference in mechanics makes no sense.

And why is it impossible to sunder armor? That also makes absolutely no sense. Yes, they would have had to devote two whole paragraphs to rules concerning how much AC drops with each bit of damage to the armor, and for opponents with good heavy armor, it would make sense to first sunder the armor, then attack the person underneath. But the D&D designers decided to sweep this bit of difficulty under the rug by flatly prohibiting sunder against armor. Why allow sunder at all, then?

Possible House Rule : If there's doubt over whether an item would realistically be smashed or merely knocked out of a wielder's grasp by a sunder attempt, the wielder gets to make a reflex save (DC = sunder attack bonus + 10) to have the item fly out of their grasp instead of breaking. Pick a direction randomly, distance equals reach of victim + reach of sunderer.

 

[Vahktang]

I would think most enemies aren't too worries about random items adventurers are carrying. If someone was trying to kill you, would you be trying to cut apart their bag? Get real. Enemies would only ever try to sunder weapons and armor (if they have adamantine weapons at least) and shields and stuff of OBVIOUS IMMEDIATE danger. Not rods, bags, and quivers.

Sure they would.
If you're using an empowerment rod on your cone of cold, the giant is going to notice.
If the giant knows that three hits will kill the arcane but it will tport after 1 (thus able to empower cone of cold later), he's going after the rod.
That doesn't make sense in some way?

Random, sure, they wouldn't sunder those.
But cause and effect?

More later,

Vahktang

 

[Mephistopheles]

And why is it impossible to sunder armor?

It's not. The Bebilith can do it with its Rend Armor extraordinary ability. While this is specifically not a sunder attack, the Bebilith uses both of its claws to rip the armor of a foe asunder (sorry, couldn't resist).

After looking at the Bebiliths ability to do this there doesn't seem to be any game mechanic reason that sundering armor is not allowed. Perhaps the designers felt that it would make wearing armor an even less attractive option than it already is if those who chose to wear armor had to repair or replace it after every other fight.

 

[Vahktang]

Thanks for the feedback.

Hi Kieth! Wulfy

And my buddy misspells my name.

The PC assume they are going to win- so shoudl the NPC's.

Please see the first post.
The giants are not winning.

Last night a surviving giant saw the archer type pull another bow out the archer's quiver after the first bow was sundered. I think most of you would agree that the giants now know to target the quiver.

People keep forgetting about circumstance bonuses and such. What type of negative would you give the giant to actually hit something on the opponents *back*.

Same as the front or side.
There is no facing in 3.5.

I really can't see them smashing at a quiver or bag intentionally, because they'd much rather smash the man holding it and, in most circumstances, it's far from clear that the object is getting in the way of the giant accomplishing that goal like a shield or other barrier would.

Well, if smashing the people just makes the people tport away before they can be killed, try smashing their stuff. If that doesn't work, try something else.

One thing to keep in mind, any character can try to sunder something. Improved Sunder just makes it a lot easier to do so without getting burned. The question is what would the NPC try to sunder and why? Can you justify smashing up all of the PC's magic items given this particular NPC's mentality just because it can be done?

All the magic items, of course not.
The rod used during fireballs, etc, yes.
The quiver too small to hold the bow, sure.
The cloak of resistance, the gloves of dexterity, no.


More later,

Vahktang

 

[Malar]

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93395

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Have you seen a short sword dive roll for cover or dodge a heavy-handed downswipe because it would really, really hurt?

Oh wait, heh I have (read: Int Scimitar with Dancing special ability lol).

But you're right with the abstract quality of HPs turning a lethal hit into something not-so-lethal to the character's continued survival. But I'm not so sure about the counter-intuitiveness of it, quite the contrary really.

What is counterintuitive is once you hit the low teens in level, it becomes frighteningly easy to destroy that ring you are wearing on your left hand (the same hand carrying your large shield), smash that necklace around your neck to smithereens, and crack you helm in twain. Heck many characters could accomplish all three in a single round if they so desired. But a called shot to your sword arm is absolutely impossible.

I have no particular problem with HPs. I do have a SOD problem when what ought to be very difficult becomes easy and what ought to be somewhat difficult becomes absolutely impossible.

In most of the rules, the presumption seems to be that any object in intimate contact with your body gains most of the defensive advantages of your HPs and saving throws. That is why you get to make a saving throw with all your bonuses for a spell effect targetting an item in your hand. That is why you never (rarely) make a saving throw for your Cloak of Resistance at all, even though you might dodge Fireballs and dragon's breathe every day.

The fundamental issue is the rules for attacking an object seem to violate the spirit of the rest of the combat rules.

At least the fighter gets a half decent chance of winning an opposed check to save his sword, but the AC of your items and their hit points basically do not scale up with level. The attacking an object rules look okay when you are low level, but they are ~90% likely to be destroyed if someone bothers to target them at high level.