D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Ruin Explorer]

It allows the players to flex their characters and really let loose with their abilities.

In 4E that's fully true.

In 5E that is not fully true. In 5E only players with certain specific classes and subclasses get to do that. Others get to do literally nothing extra. Full casters get the most, then it's a decline from there (Paladins get about as much as Full casters I think due to Smite).

EDIT - Sheesh I think we're hitting on a really under-analyzed issue with 5E - the ability to "floor it" that some classes have to a much stronger degree than others. To flex their output based on need.

 

[payn]

On the deny it front, I think part of that comes from 5MWD being a derogatory description of the playstyle. Nobody says they like being a munchkin, a railroader, etc...

Flip it around and lets talk about encounter powers (I know y'all want to!). For me, this turned the 5MWD into the 5 lunch break work day (God its so bad in PF2!). Though, every person I know that loves encoutner powers says, "NO IT ISNT!!". Why? It's because they think 5MWD is bad, and dont want to be associated with it, even if they like 5LBWD.

 

[DND_Reborn]

All you need to do is stop allowing players from consistently dictating the pace of play. Do that and no more 5 minute workday.

Pretty much says it all.

 

[Mort]

Again, as I said in the other thread - whether the 5 minute workday is a problem for a table will vary from table to table. For many tables it isn't a problem at all despite the fact that a lot of folks on these boards talk about it a lot. And it isn't necessarily because of the heavy hand of the DM, but because the players just don't want to do the 5 minute workday - they're there to explore and have fun, and so setting up camp after every encounter isn't in their plans.

But if you have a group who decides that they have fun with a 5 minute workday and the DM doesn't like it, well, the DM can try to bring the heavy hand down on them but it's likely that the DM is going to be out a game. Because players don't stick around when the DM is kicking them in their fun.

But then it isn't a "problem" of a 5 minute workday it the players enjoyment and choice of a 5 minute workday - which is different. For the most part the DM should suss out (or just plain ask) what the group likes and gravitate towards that playstyle.

I was just pointing out that it does not take a heavy handed DM to avoid a 5 minute workday, if that's the direction he wants to go. It's easy to do it without being heavy handed.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

4E provided a solid alternative, which apparently insufficiently popular (I wonder how the 30-50m now would feel, I bet 4E's AEDU design would sit a lot better with most of them than it did with people in 2008, but other 4E elements like the heavy tactical focus would not).

not to derail my own topic but I bet if you had the 4e setup (role AEDU powersource) but had the abilities evenly distributed over all 3 pillars instead of 3/4 combat you would have a hit for 6e.

 

[Mort]

In 4E that's fully true.

In 5E that is not fully true. In 5E only players with certain specific classes and subclasses get to do that. Others get to do literally nothing extra. Full casters get the most, then it's a decline from there (Paladins get about as much as Full casters I think due to Smite).

EDIT - Sheesh I think we're hitting on a really under-analyzed issue with 5E - the ability to "floor it" that some classes have to a much stronger degree than others. To flex their output based on need.

Yes, that's an issue. The most of the long rest classes have a much bigger NOVA (for the most part) than the short rest classes (with some exceptions, such as the monk). And when you have both types in the group you'll have some very interesting conversations on pushing forward etc.

I'll note WoTC seems to be moving away from short rest resets. I wonder if the 2024 revision will really push that for ALL classes.

Edit: I'll note that my response to stop allowing players to always dictate the pace applies regardless. It will stop the issue in its tracks.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

not to derail my own topic but I bet if you had the 4e setup (role AEDU powersource) but had the abilities evenly distributed over all 3 pillars instead of 3/4 combat you would have a hit for 6e.

Oh man if I had the time, dedication, and balancing skill needed for that (and didn't have ADHD - the non-joke kind), I would get started on that right now. That's a killer idea.

 

[Jer]

I was just pointing out that it does not take a heavy handed DM to avoid a 5 minute workday, if that's the direction he wants to go. It's easy to do it without being heavy handed.

Is it? I think you're downplaying how hard it is to actually stop a group of players from doing anything if they are united in wanting to do it. If you have a group of players who nova out and want to rest after an encounter how do you stop them? Throw wandering monsters at them when they're down to no resources and end up with a TPK? TPKs are a great way to end a gaming group, especially if the players think that the DM is picking on them when they're down or playing "unfairly".

It's tricky to handle these kinds of things in game - these are the kinds of things that as you point out need to be discussed in advance. Or after the fact - the DM saying "hey guys I don't think it's much fun that you keep maxing out your abilities and then camping right afterwards" probably goes a lot farther to getting a game everyone wants to play than in game tactics to "stop players from dictating the pace of play". Especially when to a large degree the game is based on the players dictating the pace of play everywhere else.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes, that's an issue. The most of the long rest classes have a much bigger NOVA (for the most part) than the short rest classes (with some exceptions, such as the monk). And when you have both types in the group you'll have some very interesting conversations on pushing forward etc.

I'll note WoTC seems to be moving away from short rest resets. I wonder if the 2024 revision will really push that for ALL classes.

Yeah I think they just need consistency either way for that, but WotC's irrational fixation on building some classes to not have any resources at all or close to it (which I think applies to almost all Rogue subclasses, and several Fighter ones), together with the fact that some classes with some resources can nova massively harder than others (compare and contrast Paladin and Ranger, for example), will, if unchecked, leave this problem as a big problem.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have to ask, forgetting a moral argument of what is or isn't right, and forgetting how you as a DM CAN CHOOSE to do things... do you know any individuals that have told you directly or indirectly the 5 m work day is good or what they want?

I was just pointing out that it does not take a heavy handed DM to avoid a 5 minute workday, if that's the direction he wants to go. It's easy to do it without being heavy handed.