D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[Helldritch]

um... okay but most my parties are only useing suprise on a case by case (both as player and DM) so that isn't much of a con to my groups

perfect that is what we want... that is a pro we are drawing them out and spliting them up.

okay and they will be at full fighting shape and you will loose your 5th level caster...

okay so game over, and we start again a new campiang... no big loss

I have never shown my notes before... unless it was to help a new DM in training... but even then I can't imagine why the Players would care as they are already makeing up there new characters... and in my experence these new characters will just be more OP and more tactics oriented that will lead to more 5mwd.

again I can't imagine this tactic working... and if you TPK enough players will just find other DMs

1) Having the whole keep on you is not what you want. You will get 12 to 16 (sometimes more) equivalent of encounters. You will die.

2) You will not be at full strength as you still have not finish your long rest. That caster might even be already more than 60 feet away as he would dispel then move away. That caster will out of the range of most darkvision range.

3) I would show my notes and indeed I did on more than one occasion, with a new group that tried the 5mwd and got TPK and was outraged to have been killed so. That was before the 5 mwd was defined and a thing. When players see how not doing the 5 mwd would have saved them lots of trouble, they start to realize that this playstyle is not welcomed unless the story calls for it.

And most players like it when the DMs share their notes. It shows that what they faced was written and not added on the spot to "justify" a TPK.

4) With dark and gritty games, TPK can and is a thing that can happen. Character's are frequent at low and mid level and start to disappear around 9th to 12th level.

5) A lot of your solutions involves high level magic which might not be the case. Teleportation, unless circle is quite high level and even the circle takes time to cast and requires components. You play with components don't you? Components that might run out quite fast if tactics you decscribe are used on a regular basis. My second group is reaching twelfth level and both wizard can cast teleport circle four times before they run out of components.

6) As for players leaving my games. This happens very rarely and usually because that player is moving to an other town. Some of my players were doing 1h30 of driving to come to my games. I had to have a room ready for them as they needed a place to sleep. Now they are in an other town at the other side of the country. So the death toll is not a deterent for many players. The challenges and the fairness with which I DM is the feature that players playing with me are looking for.

 

[DND_Reborn]

yeah, and I was hopeing for the POV of the pro side...

But if I understood your posts, you are generally against it? Are you looking for reasons why you might switch sides?

what I am looking fro are those 'power' oriented players to talk about the pros of the 5mwd.

Oh, I don't think you need to be pro to point out the possible benefits:

1. Much less resource management
2. More use of the "fun and cool" powers my PC can do
3. Able to handle more challenging encounters routinely since I know I'll get my powers replenished
4. More challenging encounters means higher stakes / more danger / risk of death
5. Likely faster combat resolution since I can nova more often and not feel the need to hold back
and I am sure more...

Like I mentioned about converting 5E to per encounter above, those were pretty much the same reasons I considered it.

Frankly, if features could be balanced against it, many features which are limited in uses per rest make little sense to me. Nearly everything should be at-will or on a drain/recharge mechanic instead of limited uses per rest. Then, you can use something during an encounter and in such cases not be guaranteed of when you'll get it back (for the same encounter). Once the encounter is over, you have it again.

For example, Second Wind and Action Surge could be one use and recharge on a 6 (on a d6). When you get to higher levels, perhaps they recharge on a 5-6 instead. Spell slots could be drastically reduced or turned into a drain system. And so forth.

 

[Asisreo]

yeah, and I was hopeing for the POV of the pro side... without the "But you can throw infinite dragons" argument, just why it is good or liked.

Narratively, there's a freedom to it that let's certain stories be paced more naturally.

Mechanically, not everyone likes resource management or are good at it. Just because, theoretically, a good wizard could have destroyed an encounter themselves doesn't mean the player behind the wizard is skilled enough to recognize that. Having 5MWD gives beginners space to learn their resources and gradually manage without going through a second or third fight slinging rocks.

Ultimately, it's not that big of a deal. The internet tends to exaggerate, especially when they perceive minor inconveniences to a vocal minority. Maybe once in a blue moon, a group thinks "The sorcerer has been using their best spells and demolishing the game the entire time, that's no fun." But that's rare. Usually a group thinks "Man, our sorcerer is awesome getting us out of dangerous situations. We should be cautious of what comes next, though."

 

[tetrasodium]

What I meant by "no consequences" was knowing you have a contingency to rest up and recuperate right after. If you're not sure that's the case, going full NOVA is very risky.

How is it "risky" to nova & then pull back to rest in 5mwd style. The chance of death from anything but extreme suicidal play is almost zero with 5e's rules. If the party goes nova through an encounter & pulls back to rest there is very little risk to them during that rest & short rest nova classes like warlock & monk can ensure that any rest of at least an hour gives them their nova back along with the fighter's action surge & so on to further reduce any chance of a longer rest being "risky".

The only time going nova in 5e is a risk is if the party pushes on even after blowing their wad or is going nova without resorting to 5mwd gameplay. Even if encounters stretch out with reinforcements that make pulling back difficult there is still the problem that player characters are tuned to last through as staggering six to eight of them before they start approaching any sort of risk.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

1) Having the whole keep on you is not what you want. You will get 12 to 16 (sometimes more) equivalent of encounters. You will die.

if they have enough to have 12 encounters all in 1 place they are leaving a lot of empty space... it's like when you put 3 people on mike jorden leaving 2 players with no one gaurding them.

2) You will not be at full strength as you still have not finish your long rest. That caster might even be already more than 60 feet away as he would dispel then move away. That caster will out of the range of most darkvision range.

it seems kind of contrived that you can guarantee that they got found before they finish there long rest... and 60ft is nothing

3) I would show my notes and indeed I did on more than one occasion, with a new group that tried the 5mwd and got TPK and was outraged to have been killed so. That was before the 5 mwd was defined and a thing. When players see how not doing the 5 mwd would have saved them lots of trouble, they start to realize that this playstyle is not welcomed unless the story calls for it.

I find the oppsite... they would just make more mon maxed characters, or quit and find a new DM.

5) A lot of your solutions involves high level magic which might not be the case.

yes I rarely see 3rd level wizard pull off a 5 min work day... becuse they don't have the resources to do it easy (not that it can't happen)

You play with components don't you?

yes

Components that might run out quite fast if tactics you decscribe are used on a regular basis.

I have never seen a party that is BOTH able to teleport AND doesn't make sure they have components. it seems so counterintuitive to be able to go anywhere as an action AND be high level AND not be able to keep tract of what is needed.

My second group is reaching twelfth level and both wizard can cast teleport circle four times before they run out of components.

why didn't they buy more? I mean

• Components: V M (Rare chalks and inks infused with precious gems worth 50 gp, which the spell consumes)

50gp you can buy 100 teleports worth for 5,000gp

6) As for players leaving my games. This happens very rarely and usually because that player is moving to an other town. Some of my players were doing 1h30 of driving to come to my games. I had to have a room ready for them as they needed a place to sleep. Now they are in an other town at the other side of the country. So the death toll is not a deterent for many players. The challenges and the fairness with which I DM is the feature that players playing with me are looking for.

I am so glad I gave you the chance to brag that people don't leave when you keep killing characters over and over again when they don't play the way you want

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But if I understood your posts, you are generally against it? Are you looking for reasons why you might switch sides?

no, before this week I have always heard it said to be a problem (normally ones that people talk about working around) I have never even considerd people would want it.

Oh, I don't think you need to be pro to point out the possible benefits:

 

[DND_Reborn]

no, before this week I have always heard it said to be a problem (normally ones that people talk about working around) I have never even considerd people would want it.

Did part of your post get deleted? You have the second part of my post quoted but nothing following that...

 

[Mort]

How is it "risky" to nova & then pull back to rest in 5mwd style. The chance of death from anything but extreme suicidal play is almost zero with 5e's rules. If the party goes nova through an encounter & pulls back to rest there is very little risk to them during that rest & short rest nova classes like warlock & monk can ensure that any rest of at least an hour gives them their nova back along with the fighter's action surge & so on to further reduce any chance of a longer rest being "risky".

The only time going nova in 5e is a risk is if the party pushes on even after blowing their wad or is going nova without resorting to 5mwd gameplay. Even if encounters stretch out with reinforcements that make pulling back difficult there is still the problem that player characters are tuned to last through as staggering six to eight of them before they start approaching any sort of risk.

It's risky if there is a good chance you won't get to rest after you go NOVA and there is still danger about.

Examples:

low-mid level play, where teleport isn't a thing. Granted Tiny Hut is a thing past level 5, but monsters can wait you out and if you have mounts etc. - they're not going to be protected.

Higher level play where the baddies can track/follow you or where teleportation/extra dimensional spaces are not an option.

Any level play where resting is going to take too much time and you'll lose out on whatever the win condition is.

And the 6-8 encounters is a suggestion. There's no guarantee the DM isn't overclocking the CRs and the PCs run into something very, very nasty - heck the DMG suggests it be done every once in a while.

The point is, going NOVA when things are not safe after or when you may need those resources before a rest SHOULD not be safe. And it's not all that hard for a DM to make that happen.

 

[tetrasodium]

It's risky if there is a good chance you won't get to rest after you go NOVA and there is still danger about.

Examples:

low-mid level play, where teleport isn't a thing. Granted Tiny Hut is a thing past level 5, but monsters can wait you out and if you have mounts etc. - they're not going to be protected.

Higher level play where the baddies can track/follow you or where teleportation/extra dimensional spaces are not an option.

Any level play where resting is going to take too much time and you'll lose out on whatever the win condition is.

And the 6-8 encounters is a suggestion. There's no guarantee the DM isn't overclocking the CRs and the PCs run into something very, very nasty - heck the DM suggests it be done every once in a while.

The point is, going NOVA when things are not safe after or when you may need those resources before a rest SHOULD not be safe. And it's not all that hard for a DM to make that happen.

You don't seem to address the question of how it's risky to nova & pull back to rest so much as allude to whiterooms that rely heavily on "you can't" & provide a few examples of rocks fall level hypotheticals.

Too much of 5e's ruleset is dedicated to ensuring that the risk is below LOQ until a line is crossed where the odds of executing players or outright triggering a TPK shifts from below LOQ to 1 almost instantly.

Ironically low level play still has risk, but not because teleport isn't an option. That risk is because PC's have not yet overmatched the flat math of BA & gained access to enough tools that mitigate the risk towards zero. Resting mechanics in 5e are setup so pretty much anything shy of the GM trolling their players is going to result in a group of players dedicated to taking a rest getting one

 

[Mort]

You don't seem to address the question of how it's risky to nova & pull back to rest so much as allude to whiterooms that rely heavily on "you can't" & provide a few examples of rocks fall level hypotheticals.

I address it by saying pulling back isn't always (and shouldn't always) be an option.

Sure if you can ALWAYS NOVA and pull back then going NOVA is optimal. But I think it's much more white room to say you can always pull back!

Too much of 5e's ruleset is dedicated to ensuring that the risk is below LOQ until a line is crossed where the odds of executing players or outright triggering a TPK shifts from below LOQ to 1 almost instantly.

Ironically low level play still has risk, but not because teleport isn't an option. That risk is because PC's have not yet overmatched the flat math of BA & gained access to enough tools that mitigate the risk towards zero. Resting mechanics in 5e are setup so pretty much anything shy of the GM trolling their players is going to result in a group of players dedicated to taking a rest getting one

If you think that's the case - change the resting mechanics - there are even several options in the DMG. Or heck, do what the early play test did and have death saves be cumulative between long rests (as in they don't reset when a character stabalizes/gets above 0) - that makes players very cautious right there.

But I haven't found it that hard to either motivate or prevent groups from resting after every/near every fight without any strain on credulity.