Is the d20 market completely saturated?

[Carnifex]

To answer the original question: is there room for more innovation? Definitely. There are no limits to the imagination, and with this many people working on this many things, we should be having innovation out the yin-yang. Ralts and I discussed this the other night, and we think that the problem is that people are afraid to take a chance - they don't want to put out something they think is really cool, that could add immensely to the game, and then have it sell like crap, or worse, get bad reviews. So they stick with the safe topics - class books, monster books, PrCs. If and when more publishers and designers are willing to take that step and go that little bit further, produce stuff that might seem a little off-the wall but is really a good idea, then we might be seeing an upswing in the market.

Well, I'm hoping that the guide I'm currently writing fits into the 'new & innovative category'. Steam & Steel: A Guide to Fantasy Steamworks, is the title at the moment; it provides rules for introducing steam technology into a fantasy world (including steam engines that are a mesh of science and magic) and in what I've written so far I've poked about at some of the ideas of industrialising a fantasy setting, taking inspiration from stuff like the Thief games and China Mievilles books.

And hey, if your players are really mad they'll be able to buy their very own oil rig

 

[spacecrime.com]

The problem with intrigue driven campaigns is that there are so many spells that can easily defeat them, particularly at higher levels. Auguries, detect spells, communes, and all that are just an example...

Yup, very true. However, that just adds some interesting consequences:

1. Spellcasters become a strategic resource. Whoever befriends or controls them has a powerful weapon at their disposal, and that leads to all sorts of fun conflicts.

2. Where there's a spell, there will be somebody developing a counterspell. There's a number of juicy spells like that in DYNASTIES & DEMAGOGUES, of which I think John's and my favorite is probably <i>scryjack</i>.

Anyway, the existence of information spells pretty much just meant I had more to write about. They tend to make plotting and intrigue more interesting rather than less interesting.

cheers,

 

[rijeagle]

Has the market been saturated? In the grand scheme of things, yes. But in the mini scheme no. Remember back in the mid 90's when TSR was floundering, reprinting itself over and over with 2e stuff (i.e. monster manuals, magica arcana, equipment guides) more to stay alive really, but nothing substantially new. That was a saturation of emptiness. Right now, yea, it is saturated, but in quantity. There are literally tens of thousands of products out there that basically do the same thing, trying to bring 1e, 2e, or forms thereof, up to 3e, burying stores with the same products, different names. One has to dig, and occasionally, a fine polished gem comes through. I think, once we get past that point of updating, the flow of unique ideas will come around again.

One of the best new products I've seen, and it is really handy is Fantasy Flights Monster's Handbook. It gives guidelines to the GM to increase, change, adjust monsters in the d20 system, in a balanced and creative way. This is one book i felt was underpriced, crazy as it sounds. At $25, it was a steal for the amount of information it gives, and the endless possibilities...GMs will never have the same orcs again
Another good idea coming around is from Monkeygod Enterprises. They are currently working on a series called "Legendary Lands" in which plot ideas and lands combine to create an area that could easily fit into any campaign world. One is out now, Cloudholme, and it is an interesting read. Two more are now in the works, and plans are for more to be put into future installments.

All in all, though, my belief is there is never enough ideas out there. I think once the rush to update to 3e is cooled down, we may yet see the explosion of good work like we had in the '80s. A lot of the little guys come up with some of the more creative and original ideas, some real treasures, and I hope they pull through.

Some of the greatest ideas never seen by the public, because they never get published, are the plots and ideas of GMs running campaigns, and through the actions of the players, end up with a masterpiece. A shame really, that we don't get to see those. Dragonlance is one of the few that actually made it to print, and it exploded onto the world. We just need to wait, as difficult as that sounds, but they will come.

With the openness of the OGL, the possibilities increase. To paraphrase from Field of Dreams "it is built, and they will come."

 

[JohnNephew]

I was just thinking last night about this very subject, and I was thinking about posting a semi-rant/gentle persuasive argument to the publishers out there to become more innovative.

As a publisher, let me turn that semi-rant/gentle persuasion right back on you -- and challenge you, as a consumer, to actively FIND the innovative products that are already out there, and BUY them...that's how you'll get more.

Sure, there is a lot of material covering the same ground. But there's also a lot of products out there that break new ground, that really do try to do new things, and that do them very well.

At the risk of tooting our own horn, look at NYAMBE: AFRICAN ADVENTURES. This is a groundbreaking work -- an African fantasy setting, designed to be inserted into your existing game world, fully developing everything from classes, to races, to monsters, to new disease rules -- in a hardcover package, including a section in full color. Top quality, well produced, and genuinely innovative. Look at the reviews it's gotten here at ENWorld. (And look how long it took to get enough reviews to show up on the "top 20 list"!) Look at its Origins Award nomination.

But then look at its sales figures -- and most retailers will tell you that they've sold a lot more of various class books. I can tell you that our book OCCULT LORE (a book of spells, PrCs, etc.) has sold a lot more copies. (I also think OCCULT LORE is a great book and loaded with innovation, but have to admit it's not as innovative as Nyambe.)

If you really want innovation, put your money where your mouth is. Find the innovative stuff, buy it, and tell your friends about it. That's the ONLY way you'll see more of it. Telling publishers that they've gotta do it doesn't work -- too many publishers have listened to that advice, only to find that people love to talk about innovation and quality, but when they stand in the store with their wallet in hand, they wind up buying the class book or another pack of trading cards.

Find what you think is innovative, and come here to ENWorld to sing its praises. If that translates to more excitement and sales, the publishers will give you more of what you want.

 

[rijeagle]

touche and well said JohnNephew.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I often think so, and then ... someone publishes something I didn't realize I really really wanted.

That is, I think, what separates the so-so D20 companies from the really good ones -- the ability to discover the "must have" products that we don't even know we "must have."

Yeah, what Eric said.

 

[Darrin Drader]

As a publisher, let me turn that semi-rant/gentle persuasion right back on you -- and challenge you, as a consumer, to actively FIND the innovative products that are already out there, and BUY them...that's how you'll get more.

Excellent suggestion. My last few purchases are as follows:

Toolbox by AEG
Raise the Dead by Necromancer Games
Book of Hallowed Might
Shelzar: City of Sin

Furthermore I have Midnight and Dungeoncraft from FFG on the way.

With the exception of the two on the way (only because I haven't seen them), I think that all of these titles add something innovative to D20. Toolbox for bringing the idea of having a chart for everything and everything in a chart concept from 1E, Raisde the Dead for giving us a new way to handle death in D&D, Book of Hallowed Might because it is pretty useful for divine spellcasters, and Shelzar because there aren't nearly enough brothels in most fantasy cities.

I am at the point now where I do look for innovation, or at least someplace where I feel there is a vacuum in the books I have before shelling out my money.

 

[ced1106]

Forget innovation.

I divide d20 products into "glory projects" and "GM Aids". Glory projects are anything that can be described as having "new" in front of it: New campaign worlds, new prestige classes, new spells, new monsters, new races, new magic items, etc. IMO, That's what's saturated.

GM Aids either provide GM advice, or do the necessary but un-sexy work for him. Examples of GM Aids are Robin Law's "Guide to Good Gamemastering" and Johnn Four's "NPC Essentials". Ambient Game's (?) "Everyone Else", Gold Rush Game's "Village of Briarton", and the Scarred Lands "Wilderness and Wastelands" are examples of GM Aids which do the necessary work for you. EE has descriptions of everyday folk PCs encounter in a town. VoB is a fleshed-out town you can use as the "village in peril" for your adventure. W&W provides vivid examples of flora and fauna you can throw at your players to get an idea of what the Scarred Lands is like.

Sad thing is that I can count the number of "GM aids" I've reviewed on one hand. I have enough "innovation". What I want are resources that will do the GM prep work for me so I can create my these innovations on **my own**.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[mearls]

But then look at its sales figures -- and most retailers will tell you that they've sold a lot more of various class books. I can tell you that our book OCCULT LORE (a book of spells, PrCs, etc.) has sold a lot more copies. (I also think OCCULT LORE is a great book and loaded with innovation, but have to admit it's not as innovative as Nyambe.)

I think the fundamental problem here is how we define innovation. This is a topic I've beaten to death in other fora, but it's a logical fallacy to apply literary definitions of innovation ("It's never been done before") to RPGs. When speaking of RPGs, I find it much more convenient and generally more fruitful to consider innovation as an improvement on existing processes or a new process that produces the same results in a more flexible or efficient manner. Innovation isn't just different. It's different and *better*.

For instance, D&D3's initiative system is pretty dang innovative. It makes combat faster and expands the ways in which you can tinker with initiative as a game mechanic. I'd wager that a significant majority of gamers like D&D combat better with that rule. Same with increasing AC and other parts of D&D3.

OTOH, a lot of new rules and game materials aren't really better. They're just different. You may have people adopt them in drips and drabs, but most people aren't willing to take the time to learn new material/rules if they aren't going to be rewarded with a game that's more fun or that runs better.

I think the idea that innovation equals novelty is a faulty definition that has plagued RPG development for quite some time. I see it playing out in the d20 field in an interesting way, and I think the publishers that can latch on to what gamers need will flourish in the next phase of d20 development. I think Baraendur hit the nail on the head: d20 companies need to produce stuff that DMs and players need to own, even if they don't know they need it yet.

I think that's one of the fun things about being a full-time game designer. I get to sit around thinking up ways to make D&D more fun, and I'm paid to do it.

 

[tf360]

There is no doubt in my mind that the market is saturated in many respects. Even if you take a cursory glance, you can easily find ten different campaign settings, at least three to four splat books for each character class and race as well as a dozen different monster books as well. For those demanding innovation though, these are the tried and true sellers whereas niche products present a risky proposition to a d20 publisher with a low profit margin. While it's easy as a consumer to say, "Why doesn't anyone publish a book about espionage in a fantasy setting, or political intrigue etc., etc.?" the bottom line is going to be that doing so presents a serious financial risk that few companies have the capital to absorb. While such a product may be innovative and well done, its sale potential is unknown. I think that with its limited production costs, pdf's are going to fill the role of providing niche products to the consumer since the publisher will lose less money on a poor selling pdf than a print product. Unfortunately, most of the bigger d20 companies shy away from producing pdf products leaving the smaller, primarily hobbyist companies to fill that void.

That said though there are still areas to explore in d20 publishing. As a GM, I always have a need for new magical items, although I think that there are way too many spells out there to even keep track of at this point.