Is the ELH a complete train wreck?

[rushlight]

Free hint 2: "epic" does not mean "ignore game balance".

Quite true. And the ELH doesn't unbalance the game. I'm quite the stickler for game balance - there are many products (even WOTC products) I don't allow. But the ELH doesn't let one playstyle (or build) overpower another, so each player has something to do. And the monsters are just as powerful as the PCs, so the challenge is still there. The rewards are greater, but at the same time it takes many rewards to get epic level items.

 

[CRGreathouse]

My children are Charles V and Epic.

 

[hong]

Quite true. And the ELH doesn't unbalance the game. I'm quite the stickler for game balance - there are many products (even WOTC products) I don't allow. But the ELH doesn't let one playstyle (or build) overpower another, so each player has something to do.

Then you have either very easygoing or very ignorant players. Either way, the ELH is still a pile of garbage.

And the monsters are just as powerful as the PCs, so the challenge is still there.

This is the easy bit.

The rewards are greater, but at the same time it takes many rewards to get epic level items.

This is also the easy bit.

 

[rushlight]

I need some positive energy man, I plan on using this book in a few months.

Don't worry. If you and your players like the style of play ("Epic") then you'll have a great time. If you don't want players doing really wild (and very cinematic, if you ask me) things, then you'll probably want to stick with the 20th level cap, or craft your own rules.

In my game, I've had players spot invisible creatures without magic ("Note how the dust motes move - there's something there!"), decipher magic items with just a moment's study ("Ahh, yes, this is the ancient style of crafting weapons to kill frost giants" out of game: "it's a +3 flaming Dwarven Waraxe!") and talk a dragon into not killing the entire party ("Well, if you kill us now, then we won't be able to return with the hundreds of diamonds we were going to leave with you once we found you...")

Sure, those things sound silly, but they fit within the context of the epic game. It's a different style than 1st through 5th level of play - almost a different game altogether. If you don't want to leave the comfort of the low and mid levels, then you should do what makes you happy. If you are like me, then you want to see your game, and it's characters grow and evolve into something new - perhaps even unexpected!

 

[rushlight]

Then you have either very easygoing or very ignorant players. Either way, the ELH is still a pile of garbage.

So your biggest issue is that some players take advantage of the rules and make obsene killing machines while others don't?

How is that any different than what you can do under the core rules?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Numion!

Well, we've thus far used the rules for only 4 levels, to continue our campaign that started at 1st level. Worked fine that far

Does that mean your campaign is at 4th-level or 24th-level? Its not immediately obvious.

There are problems in the rules. They should've made them without so big a difference between Epic and non-Epic play.

There isn't really that big a difference. The changes to saving throws are necessary, though the change to BAB (barring the capping of attacks) is not (because it causes a discrepancy with the monsters).

Level 21 should be to level 20 what 20 is to 19. One level higher, nothing more, nothing less.

The benefits gained are essentially equal, in fact for the core classes the benefits are greater on average over the first 20 levels than at epic levels.

Epic spells were also a stupid idea and stupid execution.

I fail to see how it was a stupid idea, I actually thought it was a courageous attempt that narrowly missed the mark - probably due to the lack of playtesting, which was noted at the time by the design staff on the forums.

All in all, I figure we might get around 15 levels of play from that book, because there's probably no reason or way to play past 40th level.

There is, but you really have to address the problem of the Challenge Rating rules as soon as you hit epic levels.

BTW, there have been funny threads in WotC boards ELHB section about MAAAD campaigns. Funny in a wrong way, but funny nonetheless.

Can it ever be 'wrong' if the people are enjoying themselves though?

One dude had 5000th level campaign, but disappeared when people kept harassing for a copy of the sheets .. prolly didn't want to type those 2500+ feats

I'd be curious to see some of the challenges he threw at his players, I'm sure they would have been interesting sessions.

 

[Will]

Rushlight, thanks for your calm comments in the face of animus.

 

[hong]

Don't worry. If you and your players like the style of play ("Epic") then you'll have a great time. If you don't want players doing really wild (and very cinematic, if you ask me) things, then you'll probably want to stick with the 20th level cap, or craft your own rules.

Free hint 3: wild and cinematic is entirely possible by 10th level.

In my game, I've had players spot invisible creatures without magic ("Note how the dust motes move - there's something there!"),

You can do exactly this by 10th level. The qualifier "without magic" is meaningless when it comes to the question of what mood is conveyed during play. A DC 30 Spot check is a DC 30 Spot check, and the results are the same regardless of the route you take to get there.

decipher magic items with just a moment's study ("Ahh, yes, this is the ancient style of crafting weapons to kill frost giants" out of game: "it's a +3 flaming Dwarven Waraxe!")

You can also do exactly this by 10th level. Remember this thing called "bardic lore".

and talk a dragon into not killing the entire party ("Well, if you kill us now, then we won't be able to return with the hundreds of diamonds we were going to leave with you once we found you...")

You can also do exactly this by 10th level. Heck, depending on how your group likes to handle noncombat encounters, you could conceivably do this at 1st level.

Sure, those things sound silly, but they fit within the context of the epic game.

However, everything you mention is orthogonal to the issue of the ELH itself. Epic play is a state of mind, and this thread is concerned with the ELH, not with epic play.

 

[hong]

So your biggest issue is that some players take advantage of the rules and make obsene killing machines while others don't?

No, my issue is that the ELH doesn't make any concession to reining in the potential for abuse. A game designer who relies primarily on people to be nice is a game designer who isn't worthy of the label. _I_ can always make up stuff that relies on people to be nice. I don't need to pay $70 for a hardcover book (with eminently mediocre flavour text) for that privilege.

How is that any different than what you can do under the core rules?

Oh, please. Just because no ruleset is perfect doesn't mean there aren't degrees of brokenness. If you think otherwise, go back to playing RIFTS.

 

[Numion]

Hello again Numion!

Hi UK!

Does that mean your campaign is at 4th-level or 24th-level? Its not immediately obvious.

24th, so it's only 4 levels into epic.

There isn't really that big a difference. The changes to saving throws are necessary, though the change to BAB (barring the capping of attacks) is not (because it causes a discrepancy with the monsters).

Won't that make the BABs insignificant when comparing epic characters at higher levels with different progressions?

I fail to see how it was a stupid idea, I actually thought it was a courageous attempt that narrowly missed the mark - probably due to the lack of playtesting, which was noted at the time by the design staff on the forums.

I'm not saying point based magic and custom spells are stupid ideas. But when magic has functioned differently for the first 20 levels, they IMHO are.

Can it ever be 'wrong' if the people are enjoying themselves though?

For messageboarders it's funny in a wrong way. Apparently not for the players.