Is the ELH a complete train wreck?

[Patlin]

I like the ELH. If you've hit 20th level and aren't quite ready to retire, it gives you some flexibility. Our original 3.0 campaign is still going, we're about 24th, and the ELH has worked fine for us. I expect the campaign will end somewhere between 27 and 30. The way my GM runs things, the epic feats have been only a moderate power boost anyway.

Most level 1 games look pretty similar. By 20, their are huge differences. If the ELH doesn't have your game tuned in, you can and should tinker with it. I have no real interest in playing a level 52 game myself, and I'm not a big fan of the epic spell system (especially the examples they listed!), but give the designers a break... they did a good job at what they set out to do.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

What's better than a rambling post of random thoughts on page four of a gaming thread? Nothing! Nothing I say! (with the possible exception of beef jerky, I love that stuff).

My take on the ELH

The blurring of the BAB/saves didn't bug me. The PrCs were kind of dull. The magic items were boring (woo-hoo. +6 instead of +5) I didnt' like the monsters as much as other people because of the beasties that have CR in the 22 range and you need to be level 24 to afford the +6 sword to hit the thing. What's the point? The adventure was terrible. I'm convinced it wasn't playtested. But I still page through the book now and then in a "oooh! level 30 looks kewl" kind of way.

Prestige class requirements simply don't matter at epic levels. I think that's fine as the core classes gain more epic level feats. Some epic level feats are boring but most are suitably crazy. Although the charisma skills are totally wacked. A 25th level bard can easily score the DC needed to bluff an evil 20th level wizard into listening to him for 10 minutes then using diplomacy to turn the evil guy into a fanatic buddy, then topping it off by getting the evil wizard to cast multiple wish spells on his behalf. Pretty soon, the evil wizard is a lot less powerful and the bard has an extra +5 to an ability score to make the next attempt at this trick even easier.

I have absolutely no intention of taking my campaign to epic levels, and I LIKE the over-the-top schtick.

PLAYER: Wow! I have enough exp for 21st level!
HONG: Huh?
PLAYER: Yep! I did it! After all these years of hoping and playing I finally achived a milestone in D&D!
HONG: Your character dies instantly of a heart attack and decomposes slowly in the rain. You can't be raised because a wandering green slime eats you, gains a level of evil cleric and turns you into an undead goo.
PLAYER: Dang.


And I doubt the game will go to 40. I think it's far more likely that they'll split up the levels as an option. So you'll have level 1, 1.1, 1.2, etc. This will be done with an eye for MMORPGs. Only sensible as PnP is becoming a testing ground for computer games in the same way comic books are becoming a testing ground for movies.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The Epic Level Handbook is amazing, and it's a great resource for my game.

First, it's great for worldbuilding -- the creatures all have backstory that could serve to anchor a whole campaign, regardless of level.

The mechanics are very solid in my experience. Admittedly, the epic spells require (as recommended in the ELH) the DM to excercise caution -- it's not a strong enough system to stand alone against possible PC abuse -- but that hasn't been a problem in my campaign, and the highest-level character in my group is a wizard with extremely high Spellcraft and Epic Spellcasting.

The epic skills are very exciting, and are good enough that I fleshed them out by adding other uses and DCs. These really make the players feel special: doing things purely by their own skills, without magic of any sort, is nice.

The epic feats are an excellent way to build flexibility right into the system. I have found some things lacking (good feats for bards, for example, are few), but generally have no quarrels. They're really good for the PCs to strive for: in another campaign of mine heading toward epic levels, I have a PC who is hoping to take Polyglot. He's been teaching himself languages constantly since 2nd level or so (with my harder house rules), and he looks forward to the culmination of his studies.

When the epic rules are supplemented with campaign-specific feats and prestige classes (for example, my Transcendant and Avatar of Genos), it's a great way to continue playing as high as the players want to go. It's flavorful and, at least in my experience, as balanced as the rest of the game.

Edit: I hardly looked at the adventure or the city. I have a setting of my own, and prefer to make adventures related to the PCs doings. I've heard bad things about them, but other than the horrid Union guardsman prestige class I can't say anything on the basis of personal experience.

 

[Knight Otu]

Is it a complete trainwreck? Depends on your definition, I think. My definition would be - totally useless.
Several people have gotten some use out of the various parts of the ELH, with the most prominent example possibly being Sepulchrave. So, In my opinion, it cannot really be a total trainwrack.

Does it need work? Yes, it does. I'll join the chorus of those who'd rather have 10th+ level spells than epic spells, for example. Union has a number of issues. And there is no epic adventure in the ELH. Trust me on this one.

 

[rushlight]

While I can see the potential for abuse in the epic spell system, the same level of abuse exists if players are allowed to run unchecked through the fields of Item Creation at any level. The only true limit on either is the DM - and the system was designed that way. Sure, some people may need a designer to specifically write out exactly what is and is not permissable. But many others are capable of making those distinctions themselves.

I've yet to see a single person post about how they played using the ELH and found it to be unplayable. So far, those who have played it had good things to say. Those who had bad things to say haven't played it - because they don't want to play with the ELH. Their mind was made up before hand, it's just not their style. Hey, that's fine, not every book is great for all players. But to say that the ELH is bad because YOU don't like style of play it represents is just incorrect. That's a personal preference. Just because you don't like the color blue doesn't mean that we should get rid of it.

I like the epic spell system. It lets an epic wizard tap directly into the essence of magic, to manipulate the building blocks in a direct way. It has controls on power - the cost of the spell and the DC required to cast it - both set by the DM. It's a little harder than just a simple "select an option" formula, or just a list of new spells. But that's fine, it's also much more flexable. It allows a far greater range of spells than the normal system.

Can it be abused? Sure - any system can. A player could come up with a spell that kills the entire population of the planet, and raises them as undead under the control of the caster. Could that spell be created? Yes, absolutely. Would you, as the DM, set the cost and DC at 300 gold and DC 15? Well, you could. I'd set it considerably higher...

That same player might get it in his head to condense every magic item in the game to a single amulet. Is that possible under the rules? Yes, absolutely. Would you set the cost for such an item at 300 gold? Well, you could. Again, I'd set it considerably higher.

The problem in those cases isn't that the system is broken. The problem is that the use of the system was broken. Use it wisely, and it's power and flexability will greatly enhance your game. Use it poorly, and you'll get what you deserve. Of course, it's usually just easier to blame the system rather than figure out what you've done wrong.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I've ran several the ELH at several different levels in one-shots. The thing about it is that it has a series of plateaus that are not evident. Non-epic does the same every other level (figher feats, rogue sneak attack, caster spells, etc), but the ELH does it every 5-10 levels. CRs for non-standard groups get difficult to calculate because you might be on the high or low side of the plateaus.

Magic is a little wonky in ELH-land. Not bad, per se, but not great. Until about level 30+, epic spells are worthless compared to epic metamagic feats and epic spell slots. Targets saves increase while save DCs freeze. After a certain point, everything makes every save except on a 2, and SR becomes maddeningly common. Expect lots of save-or-die spells and a core group of no-SR spells to be the foundation of all casters.
(I was fond of item'ed adamantite boulders that were hurled using telekinesis or dropped on things and Gate can bring in some meaty allies, at least in 3.0.)

At level 17 the mage tended to end the fights with awe-inspiring blasts while the fighter was just there to slow the opponents down, the level 27 mage is there to harry the foes enough to negate fast heal/regen as the fighter deals mind-numbing amounts of damage. The mage stays functional because he can ding a dozen foes for 20hps each while the fighter inflicts 200+ on one target.

That and defeating a lot of epic foes breaks down to flying. Look, a dozen uber-hounds, each stronger than Cerebrus. Why don't we just fly for a while and drop rocks on them, hmmm?

In the 30s the spellcraft gets high enough to consider making a useful epic spell, though they really amount to no-save versions of old standards until you get to another couple dozen levels. I haven't played enough in the 40+ range to know how well those epic spells balance vs. the other epic characters.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

It's okay. Needs revision to make it seriously cool.

I've looked at epic spells, and mostly ignored them, since I don't play spellcasters very often. They do need some more useful high-level spells, like a Supreme Dispel Magic (with an unlimited caster level cap); otherwise, you're Disjoining *everybody*.

I can see the epic save bonuses being necessary, since otherwise you'll have to continue to cherry-pick PrCs to be able to make the gigundo-saves that monsters will keep tossing out. Then again, you can do that fairly easily. I'm not sure epic attack bonuses make much of a difference, though it'd be nice to keep the damage curve going a bit farther. Keeping regular BAB would be good for discouraging taking PrCs like Warhulk and Survivor.

It'd be nice if the feats were cooler, too. There are some that are really freaking cool, and build up nicely, but many don't. Ugh.

So, yes, I'd love a new edition.

Brad

 

[molonel]

The ELH was overall a shoddy implementation of Epic rules. The spell seeds and epic spells range between completely useless and ragingly, utterly broken. With the change to prices for skill-enhancing items in 3.5 rules, the Spellcraft DCs for most epic spells is ridiculously out of reach even for the gods themselves. Many of the epic spellcasters I've seen got much more mileage out of putting feats into getting spell slots for uber-metamagiced 1st through 9th level spells, and skipped the epic spellcasting "burn a 1,000,000 XP and get a prize" spells.

Don't even get me started on the Hellball. The fact that you burn 400 XP per casting just adds insult to injury.

The epic magic items are mostly flavorless extensions of non-epic magic items inflated to OMG levels: a +6 Belt of Giant Strength costs 36,000 GP, but a +8 Belt of Giant Strength costs 640,000 GP. A +5 sword costs 50,000 GP but a +6 sword costs 720,000 GP. Zuh?

The epic PrCs are ho-hum. Epic BAB and save progression is okay, but you can get that from the SRD.

The monsters section is, IMO, the most worthwhile section of the book.

 

[William Ronald]

Knight Otu wrote:

Is it a complete trainwreck? Depends on your definition, I think. My definition would be - totally useless.
Several people have gotten some use out of the various parts of the ELH, with the most prominent example possibly being Sepulchrave. So, In my opinion, it cannot really be a total trainwrack.

Does it need work? Yes, it does. I'll join the chorus of those who'd rather have 10th+ level spells than epic spells, for example. Union has a number of issues. And there is no epic adventure in the ELH. Trust me on this one.

I have to agree with the option that it needs to be fixed. Although some of the statistics on the monsters seemed a bit off, many had interesting back stories.

However, I found the ELH spell system not too inspiring, and I played an epic level wizard. First, for most levels, the improved metamagic spells will do more damage or prove otherwise more effective. Secondly, the spell system was fairly easy to abuse -- especially in the hands of creative players. It also felt disconnected from the core rules. This is a bit or a major flaw.

The feats varied a bit, and I thought that the skill levels for some things were a bit weird. (Cloud-walking, anyone?) The PrCs did not really do much for me.

In the end, a good DM has to keep the balance in a game. Mind you, I do think some of the criticisms raised on balance have some validity. An epic level spell caster or a fighter type should be able to do more than just harry enemies.

In the end, my biggest complaint is that the ELH did not inspire me. I found Union to be completely useless. I wanted something that made me feel that this was a book to create true heroes of legend, characters worthy to compare to the mightiest heroes of myth, legend, and story. Instead, I felt like I received a hamburger when I was expecting filet mignon.

 

[Aristotle]

I have a semi-related question, although the tone of things thus far kinda tells me what the answer will likely be already. Lets assume I am okay with the basic premise of epic rules, and that I really want to run an epic game.

First, how compatible is the ELH with the epic material presented in the DMG (and the SRD)? I know this has been asked before and I think I recall the answer being that it is mostly compatible with a few minor tweaks.

Second, how necessary is the ELH given the rules presented in the DMG? I understand it might be useful (adding spells, feats, critters, and other items you might otherwise have to make yourself), but my question is more about whether you feel it is a 'required tool' to run a proper epic game.