Is the ELH a complete train wreck?

[Incenjucar]

-Epic rules in general: I would have preffered something more like the 2e method.

-Spell Seeds: Love the idea for magic in general, properly tweaked.

-Epic Monsters: Most are pretty darned spiffy.

-Union: *snickers*

 

[LeifVignirsson]

I voted the second... Not a total waste, but not good enough for my snobbish standards (WotC rarely is these days)

I was excited when I first picked it up, keeping in mind that I had a few "Epic" characters that needed to be converted from 2E to 3E. I was like a little kid with a new toy (oh, mommy! I want that toy!) but when I started kicking around the rules and whatnot, I was less than thrilled.

Of course, I did what any self respecting DM/PC would do when faced with a crappy book... I modded the hell out of the rules so that way it made sense. Sure, I still use some of the rules itself but really... There is a way to work around it all.

As a PC, I have a level 35 Dragon Disicple (and then six levels of junk), so I wanted to at least expand my character out to that level. Of course, I also kept the traditional 3.0 DDs in mind when extending it and so did my DM. Now, my Grundy is a Gargantuan White Dragon who is afraid to come out of his cave because there are other, more epic level creatures out there that will eat him... See? It all balances in the end

 

[Desdichado]

I've yet to see a single person post about how they played using the ELH and found it to be unplayable. So far, those who have played it had good things to say. Those who had bad things to say haven't played it - because they don't want to play with the ELH. Their mind was made up before hand, it's just not their style. Hey, that's fine, not every book is great for all players. But to say that the ELH is bad because YOU don't like style of play it represents is just incorrect. That's a personal preference. Just because you don't like the color blue doesn't mean that we should get rid of it.

If you haven't seen those posts, I encourage you to actually read the thread then. There are several. And then I'd encourage you to not make bald-faced wonky assumptions, like "only people who've never actually played this will dislike it." Or to assume you know what people are "really thinking, but not saying" as in, "if you don't like the ELH it must be because you were prejudiced to not like it already."

Trust me; you might actually look like you know what you're talking about if you take this advice. And then this thread could be about an interesting discussion of the pros and cons of the ELH rather than a misplaced and poor attempt to assign specious motives to people who's opinions vary from your own.

 

[Desdichado]

(double post)

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

First, how compatible is the ELH with the epic material presented in the DMG (and the SRD)? I know this has been asked before and I think I recall the answer being that it is mostly compatible with a few minor tweaks.

It's pretty compatible, though you'd want to use more recent material whenever it conflicts.

Second, how necessary is the ELH given the rules presented in the DMG? I understand it might be useful (adding spells, feats, critters, and other items you might otherwise have to make yourself), but my question is more about whether you feel it is a 'required tool' to run a proper epic game.

If you like holding a book, yes.

Seriously, you can probably get by with the DMG, SRD, CW, and CD (which both have updated epic feats in them).

Brad

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Numion!

But still, if the BABs advance at the regular pace the wizard will have 20 BAB when the fighter has 40.

Indeed.

In essence the Whizzie won't hit anything the Fighter needs roll to hit.

Exactly (although they will still hit on a 20). This is nothing to be afraid of, in fact it should be embraced.

I found it good idea that the BABs kept within the d20 range, to avoid the problem (which was the same reason why save progression was changed).

Its not actually a problem with Attack Bonus because thats not a single class arcane spellcasters raison d'etre.

Actually wizards not hitting isn't the issue, but if they continue to progress linearly at different paces, soon rogue's and clerics will be obsolete if fighter needs the roll to hit.

Again this isn't a problem. It leads you to making a number of assumptions about the creature AC, situational modifiers (is the Rogue attacking head on, has the Cleric buffed himself etc.), characters will be Single Class into their 100th-level and so forth.

Number of attacks was never the problem to me.

Well it only becomes a problem if you don't cap them.

It was expanded a bit with the improved slots - 10th, 11th, etc. slots that could be filled with metamagiced spells.

Yes, it works very well too.

Yep. I would've like to see the 5000th level characters sheet.

I would have loved reading that Story Hour.

 

[Kerrick]

RIFTS also has an amazingly evocative setting, mixing ultratech and fantasy elements with remarkable style and panache; distinctive, mood-setting artwork; and continuing support from Palladium.

The ELH has Union City.

No, my issue is that the ELH doesn't make any concession to reining in the potential for abuse. A game designer who relies primarily on people to be nice is a game designer who isn't worthy of the label. _I_ can always make up stuff that relies on people to be nice. I don't need to pay $70 for a hardcover book (with eminently mediocre flavour text) for that privilege.

Amen.

I fail to see how it was a stupid idea, I actually thought it was a courageous attempt that narrowly missed the mark - probably due to the lack of playtesting, which was noted at the time by the design staff on the forums.

No probably about it. Some of the things in that book are so broken I seriously doubt they even saw a mechanics editor, let alone playtesting.

But still, if the BABs advance at the regular pace the wizard will have 20 BAB when the fighter has 40. In essence the Whizzie won't hit anything the Fighter needs roll to hit.

Yes, but wizards aren't fighters - if your wizard is getting into combat, even at 20th level, you're probably doing something wrong. They have epic spells for a reason. Likewise, rogues and clerics have their own roles. You're comparing all the classes on a purely combat level, and it's an unfair comparison.

Our group is high-power, high-magic, as is the world we play in. We eagerly dove into the epic rules, and played them to around 28-30th level. And then we discovered that the rules didn't quite do it for us, so we sat down and developed our own system.

What I liked:

The monsters were interesting. Yeah, the CRs were way off, but you can fix that with a little work.

The PrCs aren't bad. I haven't used any of them myself, but one of my friends has a Legendary Dreadnought. We thought of taking PrCs beyond the max level was absurd, though, so we we eliminated "epic levels" of PrCs.

What I didn't like:

Union. A poorly-done attempt at Sigil, IMO. 30th-level guards? Get real.

The magic system. To be fair, though, I think it was a decent idea that wasn't done nearly well enough. There are no safeguards built into the system, it doesn't cover nearly all the bases (you have to either create a whole bunch of new effects, or ad hoc everything), and the creation prices are outrageous.

The epic core classes. Oh wow, I get a free feat every x levels? *snort* Come on... the least they could have done was come up with nifty epic abilities.

The feats. Again, to be fair there are some good ones hiding in there, but there are also some really stupidly useless ones also.

The magic items. Unimaginative, for the most part, and costing way too much. And with the magic system the way it is, you can't have artifacts that cast epic spells. Yes, I'll agree that only a very few spells should be put into magic items, but I think it'd be cool to have a crystal that, when broken, casts animus blizzard.

 

[Treebore]

I find a lot of the ELH hard to digest, the most useful part is the BAB and save prgression chart along with feat and stat progression.

I too found/find the Epic level spell rules "nuclear powered", but the spells themselves are nuclear powered, and the DC to make them are largely not even possible until you get into the 50th level range, sometimes earlier.

I find a lot of the feats to be senseless, but a lot are also good/useful. Much like the PH feats.

I think you can "build" your own Epic level rules, but using this as a guideline will help.

Part of why the ELH looks so broken is they don't tell you a lot of the spells and what have you are not even possible until "X" level, so you first have to crunch the numbers yourself to find out when they will even become possible.

Also, most DM's are afraid of powerful characters, so allowing stats to get to and go well above 18 will be well beyond most DM's abilities to handle, so will aloowing them to have powerful magic items. SO if you are a DM who can't handle munchkins and powergamers, don't delude yourself into thinking you can handle Epic level. Epic is all about power and being the best. If you aren't the competition will eat you.

I'll also agree that the monetary scale for magic items and the creation of them is ludicrous. All it does is force you to award millions of gold. Don't be afraid to keep treasure awards in scale with whatever scale of magic item value you decide to go with. We kept it the same as the base system and just "capped out" how much anyone can earn in treasure without soon owning all the gold, silver, platinum, gemstones, and magic items on the planet. Especially since at Epic Level the spellcasters will be making all of their own stuff.

So yes, the ELH is "confusing", but once you really try it out and see what it is really like to run high level and powerful characters, don't knock it too much. A lot of it is useful, as a guideline if nothing else.

 

[Avarice]

I gave it the 'okay, but needs work' vote myself.

There are certainly things I don't like about it. The magic items are mostly flavorless and require the PCs to mortgage kingdoms in order to buy or construct. The city of Union is atrocious ('ooh, look, a setting where the 21st level character I've been working for years to build up will be little better than a kobold torchbearer! When can we go?'). The lack of a section dealing with more traditional epic level considerations, like rules for running a kingdom or attaining godhood, for instance, annoyed me as well. Also, the 3.x tendency to minimize the usefulness of multiclass spellcasters (a staple of my own epic campaign) becomes pretty blatant using these rules, since most of the monsters have an SR equal to their CR +10, or better. Good luck getting your fireball through that, buddy.

On the other hand, I haven't run into too many problems yet running epic spells. They do require a pretty heavy amount of adjudication to keep 'em from unbalancing things, but I don't mind. I'm grateful for the fact that I now have a basic framework for designing spells beyond 9th level.

The saves and BAB seem to be working fine so far (the PCs are at 24th level currently), and I've yet to encounter any truly unbalancing feats.

All in all, the ELH wasn't what I was hoping for, but it's a good deal better than nothing. Much like I did with 2e, I can make it work, faults and all.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

I very strongly dislike the ELH.

The monsters were a mixed bag. Some of them were terrific, like the lich made of worms, the Far Realms beasties, the Winter Wights(?), and the one that was basically a super elemental from Krypton. Others, most notably the hyper-super-duper-elves (In DC comics, they call them the Flash) were HORRIBLE.

The rest left me cold:

The spells were an interesting idea, badly mangled.

The skill DCs were head scratchers.

The epic feats were... not. I remember specifically an archery feat which a fighter could qualify for at 2nd, maybe 3rd level. That feat was epic only because it had the word "Epic" in its description.

The class progressions were completely unimaginative. I want neat, high level abilities, not some bonus feats and wonky save/base attack bonuses.

The description of an "epic dungeon" made me laugh out loud. Oh look, an epic ooze! And an epic pit trap with a dragon on the other side! How mythic!

The magic items were uninspired - high level characters should have Stormbringer, or Excalibur, or the Ark of the Covenant in their back pocket. Artifacts, baby, with bizarro powers worthy of ludicrously mighty heroes.

And Union - oy. Oy. Oy. When I'm playing a 21st level character, the last thing I want to do is run around in a city where everyone is scaled to my level. 15th level city guards? Yeah, thanks for making "epic" meaningless - I can get the same scale of effect playing a 5th level character in a city full of 2nd level guards. Talk about missing the point of high level play.

Patrick Y.