Is the Force Dragon unhittable?

[ashockney]

Ok, I appreciate that people have been able to min/max their way into some very interesting things (see Sultans of Smack), however, our gaming group is a little stumped by one of the new creatures in the Epic Level Handbook. An ancient Force Dragon, CR 43.

So, in theory, it should be a good challenge for a party of 4 40th level characters.

This particular creature, however, has an AC of 88. Not buffed up, not enhanced by magic (imagine this thing's hoard), not enhanced by spells cast (which it can cast as a 30th level Sorcerer).

For anyone who's even purchased this book...

please explain: How are you going to hit this thing?

I can appreciate getting close with a "True Strike" but even that is probably only one attack per round that you stand a chance to hit with, and may NOT hit with, particularly if I'm buffed accordingly.

Touch attacks...maybe. But what else?

 

[Crothian]

+30 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Epic Weapon Focus, +10 Strength Bonus, +10 magical Item. That's +53 and I'm not even trying.

 

[James McMurray]

The party in my Return tot he Tomb of Horrors campaign is not even 20th level yet, and they routinely have tohit bonuses in the 40s.

A 40th level PC should have access to massive bonuses.

 

[Victim]

Look at new and exciting bonus types. Luck, morale, competence, and insight might be a good place to start. The pale green stone gives +1 compt to almost everything and is no space for 20k. So it might be a reasonable assumption that a competence bonus to almost everything is 10k x bonus squared. So a non Epic item could be +4 if it took up a space. So an Epic character could easily have one.

Similarly, look at Skin of the Hero from the Psi book. +3 luck bonus to attacks, saves, and AC for 68k. And it doesn't even take up a "real" space. Or you could base something off Divine Favor to get attacks and damage. Using DF, you could get a +6 bonus normally. Mantle of Egregious Might (sp?) from BoEM is an 8th level spell that adds a +4 luck bonus to all stats, attacks, saves and AC. That too is effectively +6 to attack.

I can't think of anything that gives a big morale bonus to hit, but we could price like the other weird bonues at 2500. By my calculations, an item giving a +5 morale bonus to attack and damage would be 375000 if it didn't use a space or was part of another item.

With something like 13 million, it should be easy to afford a bunch of these relatively cheap bonuses, especially if you set things up so that, like the pale green ioun stone or luckstone, they add to a whole bunch of things.

You could probably get +14 to attack, +4 to skills and saves, and +10 to damage for less than a million. That's not even getting into Epic type bonuses of more than +5 or so. Add in a few more bonus types on no space items and you could probably get around +25 - +30 with bonuses to other saves or checks for less then 2 million.

And then you can include things like the Legendary Dreadnought's super attacks and other abilities. I woudn't worry about any buffs on the dragon. It's spells have dispel DC of 41. With that Epic Dispel variant, PCs could rip its magics off with no trouble.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Crothian - your +53 still just flat-out misses except on a 20.

Assuming 40th level characters, your +53 becoms a +63. Against an AC of 88. Which is still automatic misses except on a 20.


You need to get yourself at least another +6 before you can hit on a 19+. And this is a fighter getting this. Noone else stands a chance.

Don't tell me they've pulled another "only mages can do this" in D&D.

 

[ashockney]

A good start...

Ok, I'll call that a good start.

Here's my best base assumption, there's a couple of ways of getting there, but let's take this road:

Half-orc Barb, Starting Str 20

Book of Strength +5
Stat Bonuses to Str from Lvl +5
"Epic" Strength Item +12
Greater Rage +6
Total Str = 48 = +19

20 Lvls Barb (or whatever) = +20
20 Lvls Epic Classes = +10
"Epic" Weapon = +10
WF & "Epic" Weapon Focus = +2

Total = 61

Ok, check my math here...88-61 = oh, yeah, way more than 20. Which means you must supercede this to even have a 10% chance of hitting on your first strike.

I like where Victim is going with the "other" bonus types. That's a good thought. Getting at least +5's in these categories, if not +10's seems well within reach by 40th level.

So, other bonuses include insight (true strike), luck (divine favor), and morale (prayer) bonuses. I don't know of any more "competence" bonuses besides the ones listed above.

Now, to attempt to dissect the "epic" versions of the above.

Bards can inspire greatness to the tune of +4 "competence" bonus to attacks.

Bards can also inspire courage to the tune of +2 "morale" bonus to attacks.

Bards can inspire excellence for a +4 "competence" bonus to an attribute (like Strength) for a +2 to attacks.

I saw no sign of epic feats that would allow you to enhance the effects of true strike, prayer, or divine favor. (They all require a "variable" numeric effect to be manipulated.)

There was not an epic "seed" that granted a luck or morale bonus.

Therefore, going by the standards laid out in the PH (which I don't have in front of me...) I believe that the best options are:

True Strike (Insight) +20 to one attack roll (I've described that this DEFINITELY gets you there, but probably only on one attack per round.

Prayer: +2 Morale Bonus (someone check me on that)

Divine Favor: +5 Luck Bonus (someone check me...)

New grand total: +69 (Carryover +62, Prayer: +2, Divine Favor: +5). Ok, assuming there's no defensive spells or magic items on the force dragon...(yeah right, like he won't have a +6 item of Cha and +6 item of Dex which is another +6 to his AC!!!)...this new total actually gives a FULLY twinked out barb a 10% chance of hitting with his primary attack (granted, an auto-hit with true strike), and if he's lucky enough to know an epic bard, he can bump that up by as much as +10, giving him a +79 to hit the AC of 88, which is a 50% chance, for a fully twinked out barb, against a force dragon with no magic items, and no defensive spells cast...

Does anyone else see the challenge in this?

What am I missing?

 

[Metalsmith]

Hitting the 88

Crothian - your +53 still just flat-out misses except on a 20.

Don't tell me they've pulled another "only mages can do this" in D&D.

He was Holding Back. He said that.

+30 Bab, +19 from Str (magic Book, Girdle and Level Adds, Rage) +10 Weapon (+20 if he uses Bows) Epic Weapon Focus and W Focus +3, +3 Skin o the Hero, +2 Flanking, +10 for Tensers Transformation in a Ioun Stone, +2 Charging, and some Canned Bardsong +2 Competence Bonus = 83 to hit! I get Him on a 5 or better. Blow 3 Feats for Epic Prowress +3 and Now I'm Hitting on a 2.

And Lets not Forget Brilliant Energy wich will chop off about 69 points of Natural AC! so I come up with +155 to hit. That Dragon better F'ing Hide.

Metalsmith

 

[hammymchamham]

Crothian - your +53 still just flat-out misses except on a 20.

Assuming 40th level characters, your +53 becoms a +63. Against an AC of 88. Which is still automatic misses except on a 20.


You need to get yourself at least another +6 before you can hit on a 19+. And this is a fighter getting this. Noone else stands a chance.

Don't tell me they've pulled another "only mages can do this" in D&D.

You missed the point of his post, he wasn't even TRYING to get a high to hit, but came up with a +53 in a few seconds. I bet Crothian didn't even have the ELH in front of him...

 

[Jeph]

Let's see: Level Paladin 20/kensai. Smite him. +30 BAB. +10 bow with +10 arrows. +20 dex. +20 Cha. +2 bracers, +1 green stone thingy (me like, me like), +4 focus/epic focus/superior focus. I could add more, but right now I've got +97. With Extra Smite (DotF), you could be doing this like every round for an hour (hyperbole, please note).


remember: IT'S EPIC!

 

[Jeph]

Oh yeah. Add a few Psion levels and you have Fell Shot. IMHO, Fell Shot, Deep Impact, and Unavoidable Strike are BROKENEST FEATS EVER.

I just love them.