Is the Force Dragon unhittable?

[Victim]

It's not so much a twinky combination of classes that's needed, it's the twinky combination of items and spells, especially when you scale the bonuses on normally small scale items. And you're right mmu1, Brilliant Energy doesn't beat natural armor.

Magic item dependence is bad for most characters before level 20, and it will be awful by level 40. It's sad when a group of 4 adventures are carrying around more value in magic items than the GDP of most countries.

At 40th level, you could create whatever character you want in terms of classes but your effectiveness would mostly depend on items - at least against Epic foes. Pick out a few cool items that you want, and then let a powergamer pick out the items you need. Also, since I doubt many people have lots of experience fighting CR 40 monsters, I usually find that it's a good idea to work backwards from the monsters. Work back from that sky high AC and figure out what miscellaneous stuff you need.

And characters that fight their way up to level 40 probably won't have our lack of experience. Most of the creatures in the ELH are CR 21 to the mid thirties. Mid fifties ACs aren't that uncommon in the listed monsters and some are have upwards of 60. Buffed or equiped foes would have substancial higher ACs. So a group of heroes would probably be ready to deal with mid 60s ACs by around level 35, probably with mid 60s attack bonuses. Then add in few more levels of fighting foes with even higher ACs, and include the fact that dragons are generally really tough for their CR and the dragon is above group's level and thus is a boss type monster. It's not unreasonable to think the characters would have some difficulty hitting, or would need to use tuestrike or similar abilities to have good hit chances. You probably shouldn't be hitting a boss monster build for high defenses on a 2, right?

Edit:

Also, you could just use the spell Squamos Pulse from BoEM2. Not only would it deal a massive amount of damage, it halves the subject's natural armor bonus for a few rounds. With a new AC of 56, 40th level characters should have little trouble hitting it.

Finally, the dragon's SR of 51 probably won't be a strong defense. Most pure casters should be able to blow that away.

 

[Crothian]

But is it an epic toad?

PC: "A.. a dragon? Yikes! I throw.. ermm, Hoppy! I cast shocking grasp and have Hoppy deliver it!"

Hoppy the toad: "Uh, boss, I don't think --"

PC: "No time for talk, my little jumpy buddy! It's time to do your duty as a good familiar. Go get 'im!" FLING

DM: "Uh, okay. The force dragon gets an attack of opportunity - clatters dice - oh, that's gotta hurt. Hoppy just got swallowed whole. You hear his little voice in your head for just a few seconds before his life force is completely extinguished. Lose that con bonus, eh? And now the dragon looks at you, horrified, and says 'You would do that to your best friend?!?' with righteous indignation in his voice. He's breathing on you; roll a reflex save."

PC: "HOPPPPPPY!"

I liked Hoppy.....

 

[ashockney]

Closer my precious...

Now the ideas are flowing...

Also, you could just use the spell Squamos Pulse from BoEM2.

Very true. Ouch indeed. I think the Epic designers had other things in mind for hitting this creature, however. Not a bad move against any dragon. I like it!

+30 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Epic Weapon Focus, +10 Magic Sword, +15 from Strength, +10 Luck Bonus, +10 Competence Bonus, +10 Insight Bonus, +10 Divine Bonus, +10 Morale Bonus.

Weapon Focus gets counted for an extra point here, it's +2 total, not +1 and then +2 more.

Not sure where you found a +10 luck, +10 competence, +10 insight, or +10 morale bonus. But I would REALLY like to know! That's actually the point of my post! Where would you get the bonuses to hit?

The +10 Divine Bonus I get...just make him a lesser god. No problemo...

CR is a steaming pile of doo, especially at Epic levels.

Ok, that's a possibility, but not the point of my post. That's a whole separate topic...

Let's pretend they did some playtesting with the Force Dragon, and hitting an 88 AC is no biggie for 40th level folks. How's that again? Remind me...

Let's see: Level Paladin 20/kensai. Smite him. +30 BAB. +10 bow with +10 arrows. +20 dex. +20 Cha. +2 bracers, +1 green stone thingy (me like, me like), +4 focus/epic focus/superior focus. I could add more, but right now I've got +97. With Extra Smite (DotF), you could be doing this like every round for an hour (hyperbole, please note).

Smite...I'll give you that, but how often can you do it? Really? Can you smite more than once a round? I think it'd be hard to smite more than 4 or 5 times a day. That ain't gonna kill this thing.

+10 arrows and +10 bow...that's good, that's a higher attack bonus than what I was suggesting before by 7 (+10 - 3 from rage), which puts us at +76 vs. an 88 AC. You're at least in the ballpark on your first shot with this, but I think you just took a nosedive on your damage per hit, unless there's some new "epic" guidelines on "mighty" bows (anyone?)

. . and 1 level of Legendary Dreadnought for Unstoppable is another +20 . . .

See smite above. Not more than 4 or 5 times a day. Now if you can smite AND use Unstoppable. Now, it's getting interesting. Between Smite, True Strike, and Unstoppable, I could see a big beefy 26 Paladin/14 Legendary Dreadnaught rolling up on the punk Force Dragon. Now that is an EPIC combo!

Okay. Now you've hit him. What about damage? How much DR does this thing have?

Hold on! I'm not even going here yet, Spier. Just show me how you can HIT the force dragon, THEN we can deal with doing enough to kill it. Players seem to find infinite new and creative ways to kill the BBEG's (big bad evil guys), no matter what the defenses, but they've ALWAYS got to be able to hit them first!

PC: "HOPPPPPPY!"

That's a classic!

What else are we missing?

 

[James McMurray]

Weapon Focus gets counted for an extra point here, it's +2 total, not +1 and then +2 more.

Actually, the orignal poster was correct. Epic Weapon Focus grants a +2 to hit witht he selected weapon. It is an unnamed bonus which does not state that it overlaps the original Weapon Focus feat. Therefore it stacks. Also, if it did not stack, it would be pointless, as Epic Prowess would give the same thing, but for all weapons.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Closer my precious...

Weapon Focus gets counted for an extra point here, it's +2 total, not +1 and then +2 more.

Er...do you have a source for that? Because as it stands both Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus provide unnamed bonuss, and therefore they should stack. Note that they do not have the 'this overlaps' caveat that things like Epic Spell Focus do.

J

 

[Warlord Venger]

+30 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Epic Weapon Focus, +10 Magic Sword, +15 from Strength, +10 Luck Bonus, +10 Competence Bonus, +10 Insight Bonus, +10 Divine Bonus, +10 Morale Bonus.

[/B]

As a straight class fighter looking to soon hit Epic levels, I've been looking for ways to significantly raise my AC and BAB. Tell me, exactly what items would one use to achieve Luck, Competence and Insight Bonuses. I've seen them listed as stackable in the DMG, but the magic item list is strangely devoid of those items. For that matter what about a Sacred bonus? or are you treating that as Divine?

 

[Victim]

Re: Closer my precious...

Now the ideas are flowing...

Weapon Focus gets counted for an extra point here, it's +2 total, not +1 and then +2 more.

Not sure where you found a +10 luck, +10 competence, +10 insight, or +10 morale bonus. But I would REALLY like to know! That's actually the point of my post! Where would you get the bonuses to hit?

The +10 Divine Bonus I get...just make him a lesser god. No problemo...

What else are we missing?

You get those bonuses by looking at existing existing items and effects and scaling them up for increased costs, or using the DMG chart for bonuses.

For example, a pale green ioun adds a +1 competence bonus to attacks, saves, checks, and maybe some other things - I don't remember exactly and I'm not buying a new DMG. It is valued at 20k and doesn't take up a space, therefore one would expect that the cost is derived from a variation of the usual item formula; K * X^2 (with another x2 for being no space). Since that Ioun stone is cool and useful item, it stands to reason that people might be interested in upgrading it, or creating an improved version. So the pale green stone +5 (maybe it wouldn't be pale anymore since it's much more powerful) would cost 2*10000*25. For 500 000 we have an item that adds +5 to attacks, saves, and checks and doesn't take up a space. An Epic Cloak of resistance +7 costs almost as much and doesn't have near the utility. A character could create 3 similar items using other bonus types - namely the Luck, Insight, and Morale types which are about as rare and useful as competence and would have the same value. For 2 million gp, he'd have +20 attack, +20 to saves, and +20 to checks - and he wouldn't even be using any item spaces. Obviously, some bonuses could be moved around to other areas, namely AC and damage. Let's find an item that adds to attack, saves and damage. The Skin of the Hero from the Psi book adds +3 luck to attack, AC, saves. It also goes in a completely new item slot, but I'll assume that we'll put our Epic version into the same space. It costs 68k gp for that +3 bonus. So the constant in our equation is about 7500 (7555.5 repeating to be exact, but maybe they rounded up to the nearest thousand). Using that formula, a +5 variant would cost about 190 000.

Let's say we want +20 to our attack, +10 to saves and skill checks, +10 to AC, +10 damage, all in our "psionic" skin slot - which isn't a slot at all in the core rules. We pay 1 570 thousand GP, or about 12% of a 40th level character's wealth. We haven't even used epic level bonuses yet, because the cost penalty for going over +5 is huge. Also, there's the sacred/profane bonus type that we've ignored - which is probably what wolff96 meant when he said +10 divine. If we want, we could throw in another +5 item for attacks, damage, and saves using the sacred type. Now we have +25 attack, +15 damage, +10 AC, +15 saves, and +10 to checks and have only spent 2 million.

Starting from Base + feats + STR + weapon of +61 attack, we now swing at +86 and have a ton of other bonuses to boot. Counting the weapon, a +8 STR item and a +5 tome, along with the toy above, we've spent less than 1/2 our gold. And some areas might be okay to ignore because of teammates. If a spellcaster uses an Epic version of Bull's STR or something, then the STR bonus could be even higher and we could go with a mere +6 STR attached to some other item.

And to round out the spending thus far, Victim recommends a continous Mind Blank item, which comes out to 240 000 and takes up a space.

Also, flanking is another +2. One person in a flanking pair might also go for the "attacker on higher ground" bonus. Maybe stun the dragon or knock it prone somehow for another +2 and +4. The bonuses that you get for free work too.

Competence bonuses come from the Pale Green Ioun Stone. Luck bonuses come from the Luckstone or Skin of the Hero (psi). Most Insight bonuses come from psionic powers and effects as well. Sacred bonuses seem mostly used for Consecrate type effects, so I initially didn't use them.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm pretty sure he's assuming that the DM will just allow you to make/have them made.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As a straight class fighter looking to soon hit Epic levels, I've been looking for ways to significantly raise my AC and BAB.

Far as I know, the only ways in the Core Rules to raise your BAB are Tenser's Transformation and Divine Power... and Divine Power won't exactly help a straight-class fighter.

-Hyp.

 

[Kibo]

Re: Closer my precious...

Let's pretend they did some playtesting with the Force Dragon, and hitting an 88 AC is no biggie for 40th level folks. How's that again? Remind me...

Well Kai Lord's unearthed acrobat ranger has a sweet favored enemy bonus against dragons. Unlike Thor, he took dragons then giants! Not to mention after a while those hunter's mercy's and your epic cloak of beach combing really start to pay dividends.

And....scene.
[/xarlen]