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Is the Monk overpowered?

MrMyth

First Post
You seem to miss that controllers dont get multiattacks that are that good. Generally, multiple target attacks are around half damage compared to the single target attacks. This is pretty standard across all classes in the PHB1 and PHB2, but the monk is exempted.

Taking a quick look, I'm pretty certain this isn't true. Let's compare the Monk to the Wizard from levels 1 through 10. I am consistently seeing the Wizard having higher base damage and significantly more targets. Now, this doesn't count Flurry of Blows, which is a big damage boost - just like a Striker deserves. And the Monk does have one genuine advantage - they can't hit their allies. But in terms of how many people they can attack and the base damage of those attacks? The Wizard is easily ahead.

Level 1: The Monk gets a higher damage burst 1 At-Will, with Five Storms. The Wizard gets the highest damage Daily Burst 2 (Freezing Cloud, which attacks twice, outdamages Masterful Spiral), but Spinning Leopard can potentially yield more attacks in the right circumstances. Monk has no relevant multi-target encounter powers, compared to the Wizard's Blast 5 Burning Hands or Skewering Spikes (any three targets within 5 squares.)

Level 3: The Monk gets Eternal Mountain, a Burst 1 that knocks prone. The Wizard gets Fire Shroud, a Burst 3 for more damage (due to ongoing damage) or the lower damage Blast 5 Color Spray that dazes.

Level 5: The Monk gets One Hundred Leaves, a Blast 3 that pushes. It runs fleeing in terror from Grasp of the Grave, which is larger (a Burst 2) that dazes on a hit, does full damage on a miss, and sticks around doing automatic damage each turn. For sheer number of targets, Fireball brings a Burst 3, and for sheer damage output, Stinking Cloud is a Burst 2 which inflicts full-power automatic damage each round.

Level 7: The Monk has Fist of One Hundred Strikes, which can hit 2 enemies within reach for not much damage. The Wizard gets a Burst 3 Repelling sphere for less damage, or can be satisfied with a Burst 2 power for higher damage and automatic damage the following round (either via Corrosive Mist or Winter's Wrath).

Level 9 Daily: The Monk gets Crane Dance, another decent one, which gives multiple attacks that knock prone with the ability to shift in between each of them. Of course, Wall of Fire can hit largely the same spread of enemies for automatic damage, or one can simply unleash Ice Storm for equal damage and immobilized instead of prone.

The only powers that can really compare are Spinning Leopard and Crane Dance, and even they are up against tough competition. In general, though, the Wizard has the edge in damage and targets and conditions. More than that - the Monk doesn't really have reliable multi-target attacks. Only its dailies let it truly hit a decent number of enemies - otherwise, it is pretty much limited to Close Burst 1s. The Monk comes out on par with the Swordmage, basically - a similar sub-controller with reliable access to smaller-scale multitargeting.

And the damage... 3d8, 2d8, 2d6. I have no idea why you consider those staggering amounts of damage compared to others. It isn't terrible, but isn't anything amazing in terms of raw dice. It can't compare to wizard attacks that hit multiple times or deal automatic damage. Now, Flurry of Blows adds a pretty big kick - but it is supposed to, to let the Monk fulfill its striker role. They can certainly contribute against multiple foes, but they certainly aren't making controller attacks obselete.

I'm just not sure where you got the idea that controller attacks aren't that good. Keep in mind, other classes tend to have specific features that enhance what they do - marks, striker damage, healing words. Controllers are very much tied to their powers, and it typically shows - those powers are often exceptional, and let them perform quite well whenever they can bring their multitargeting powers into play.
 

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Njall

Explorer
I don't think monks are overpowered in general, but I do think there's something fishy about their AC. I mean, they get a +2 class bonus and they have access to a no-brainer +2 feat bonus. Why do monks need to have defender grade AC, exactly? (Same goes for avengers, while we're at it.)

Assuming the monk spent a feat on Unarmored Agility, his AC is 1 point ahead of a rogue that took WP (parrying dagger) or Hide Armor Proficiency.
The rogue is 1 point ahead in accuracy, though.
In addition, as long as the rogue can bump his Con score to 15, he's going to catch up in paragon ( thanks to hide armor specialization ).
Monks' AC is fine, or at least it's not noticeably better than what any striker/controller with dex (or potentially int) as his primary stat and a bit of investment can achieve.
Avenger and Barbarians are the guys with dangerously high AC...
The problem is that until all defenders get a class bonus to AC, "defender level AC" can be achieved in a number of ways and by a ton of classes.
 
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Argyle King

Legend
It may be worth pointing out that a Monk benefits greatly from having a Superior Implement; in particular, an accurate implement can be a good investment for a monk.
 

Tarrl

First Post
It may be worth pointing out that a Monk benefits greatly from having a Superior Implement; in particular, an accurate implement can be a good investment for a monk.
Could you explain how that works Johnyy3d3d? I was curious about that option myself.
thanks
 

Argyle King

Legend
Could you explain how that works Johnyy3d3d? I was curious about that option myself.
thanks

I'm away from my books right now because I'm away from home, but I'll try to answer as best as I can from memory.

To gain access to Superior Implements, you need to take the Superior Implement feat. Through this feat, it's possible to use Accurate Implements which give a +1 to attacks made with that implement. The majority of monk powers have the implement keyword, so (I think) you could gain a +1 to attack rolls to pretty much all of your powers by using an accurate implement.

You can then still take versatile expertise on top of using an accurate implement for even more of a bonus to your attack rolls.


Can somebody else weigh in here and add anything I may have missed?
 




ArmoredSaint

First Post
One of my primary problems with the monk is that his attacks don't target Armour Class. How in the heck does that make sense? At least some of his attacks are described as punches/kicks, right? Why shouldn't they target AC? They did the same with the Druid in animal-shape; his attacks target NADs, even though those of the equivalent animal in the monster manual usually target AC. I don't understand why something that is very plainly a physical attack should ever get to ignore armour. There's too much of that going on in this game for my taste...

In addition, as another poster mentioned earlier, there is indeed something fishy going on with the ACs of certain light-armoured classes. Why do they have so many options (class features, feats, powers) to boost their AC? I thought the Striker role was supposed to be something of a glass cannon? It's just thematically wrong for them to be running around sporting ACs better than those of men in plate or scale (or even chain!). When are the heavy armour classes going to get some love?
 

Mort_Q

First Post
One of my primary problems with the monk is that his attacks don't target Armour Class. How in the heck does that make sense? At least some of his attacks are described as punches/kicks, right? Why shouldn't they target AC? They did the same with the Druid in animal-shape; his attacks target NADs, even though those of the equivalent animal in the monster manual usually target AC. I don't understand why something that is very plainly a physical attack should ever get to ignore armour. There's too much of that going on in this game for my taste...

It's simply a matter of balance. As non-weapon attacks, this balances out the lack of weapon proficiencies.
 

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