Is the original Tomb of Horrors a well-designed adventure module?

[Piratecat]

Further cementing my idea that Gygax is a perpetual 12 year old trapped in a man's body. I really cant stand the whole "player vs. DM" mentality that plagued early editions.

We have a rule here about not insulting other members of the community. Even if Gary Gygax didn't post here - and he does - we also ask that people not level personal insults against industry figures. Whatever you may think of early D&D's design philosophy, please don't combine those insights with personal insults.

If this is a problem for any reason, please email me.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Without the nostalgia of ToH, if a module like that was released now by WotC, it would be panned as terribly written and a disaster.

Though not released by WotC, Crypt of the Devil Lich is reportedly of a similar style and quite popular.

 

[gizmo33]

There's a difference between being the point man in war and being ordered to clear a minefield by walking into it. ToH is the latter.

No honorable armies would use that tactic, and neither should heroes.

"Honorable armies"? "Heroes"? Plenty of people are put into very bad situations by their commanders all of the time. "No honorable armies ..." sounds nice when you say it, but it's not based on history, especially some of the nastier and better documented moments in history like the Vietnam war.

But then I suspect you guys really don't care about history or anything like that - and why should you? It's fantasy game. If you want to say that killing a prisoner rather than sparing them is not "honorable" and therefore "ridiculous", then so be it. It's just probably not constructive to assume that your opinions in these cases are/should be universal.

 

[gizmo33]

So, a product designed specifically to upset the consumer? A module meant to humiliate and frustrate the people who play a game, a game they play to have fun? It sounds like an admission that it's a bad product to me.

Wow! Piling speculation on top of rumor. IIRC the actual article that's been referred to leaves it someone to the reader's interpretation how much antagonism was really in the design of the Tomb. And what was referred to in that article was NOT the product, but the ToH as it existed in Gygax's briefcase when he was taking it around to conventions. I'm sure the actual amount of "humiliation" was probably exaggerated for purposes of telling an entertaining story.

Once again, it seems that the context is completely ignored. Find a magazine article from the time where someone wrote in and said "I'm completely humiliated by the ToH, somebody save me!" Give me a break.

Besides, the module doesn't run itself. A good DM is going to evaluate the contents before running it. If you think 1E DMs were a bunch of tools that just ran the module because the levels stamped on the front cover told them them could, you're thinking of the wrong edition.

 

[Quasqueton]

Just some examples for those who aren't familiar with the ToH (bold and caps are Gygax's):

Very first area of the tomb complex (there are three "entrances" to the tomb) -- a 20' wide, 30' long tunnel ending at false double doors:
[sblock]1. FALSE ENTRANCE TUNNEL: The corridor is of plain stone, roughly worked, and is dark and full of cobwebs. The roof 20' overhead is obscured by these hanging strands, so casual observation will not reveal that it is composed of badly fitting stones. Daylight will be sufficient to reveal that there is a pair of oaken doors at the end of the passageway. If the roof is prodded with any force, or if the doors are opened, the roof of the tunnel will collapse and inflict 5-50 (5d10) hit points of damage upon each character inside of it, with no saving throw. The doors open outwards by great iron ring pulls. The cobwebs must be burned away to be able to inspect the tunnel ceiling.[/sblock]

Pit traps (10 total throughout the Tomb):
[sblock]All pits (except where noted to the contrary) throughout the Tomb are 10' deep and concealed by a counter-weighted trap door which opens as soon as any person steps on it. Thrusting with force upon these traps with a pole will reveal them 4 in 6 (d6, 1-4). Those who step upon a pit lid will have a base 100% of falling, modified downwards by 1% per point of dexterity through 12, and 2% for each point above 12, i.e. dexterity of 13 = 14% chance of not falling into a pit, dexterity of 14 = 16%, 15 = 18%, 16 = 20%, 17 = 22%, and 18 dexterity = 24% chance of not going in. At the bottom of each pit are 5 iron spikes coated with poison. Roll d6 to determine how many spikes wound the victim; 1, 2, and 3 meaning that number of spikes have wounded the victim, 4-6 equal NONE HAVE WOUNDED the character. Each spike causes 1-6 hit points of damage, and the victim must make a saving throw versus poison for each spike which wounds him or her. Any failure means the victim is killed by the poison.[/sblock]

And an untrapped secret door:
[sblock]17. MAGICAL SECRET DOOR: This entrance to the remainder of the Tomb is along the stairway which leads down. It can be found by any means, but nothing will enable it to be opened until the area is either viewed through a gem of seeing, a similar spell is cast, or a detect magic spell is used to pinpoint the magic aura. When the magic of the door is found, it will require a dispel magic or remove curse spell to remove the guard which prevents the door from being opened. Once accomplished, the secret door can be opened easily from either side.[/sblock]

And the adamantine door (the "marking" refers to the S on the map):
[sblock]24. ADAMANTINE DOOR: Although it is marked secret, it is very evident; the marking is simply to make certain that its actual nature is known. It has permanent anti-magics on it, and there is no magical or physical way of forcing entry. There are 3 slots in the door at about waist height. If 3 sword blades are shoved simultaneously into the slots, the 1' thick panel will swing open. THIS IS A ONE WAY DOOR WHICH CANNOT BE PREVENTED FROM CLOSING IN 5 ROUNDS![/sblock]

And here are the green slime tapestries (the secret door leading to the rest of the Tomb is behind one of the tapestries); the room is 30'x30':
[sblock]21. THE AGITATED CHAMBER: <snip irrelevant description by Quasqueton> Only the rather plain tapestries hanging upon the east and west walls appear to have been spared a rough looting. <snip> The weight of the players upon the balanced floor will have set a mechanism into motion, and each round they remain in the place, a d6 must be rolled. Any odd number resulting from a roll means that on the next turn the floor of the room will jump and buck up and down violently. Each player must be rolled for, with a 2 in 6 chance to fall and sustain 1 hit point of damage from abrasions and contusions.

The tapestries, which appear to feature weed-grown rocks and green and golden tan scenes of undersea life, are specially anti-magic treated creations of green slime and brown mold. If they are torn, they instantly turn into green slime and cover each and every player character/character standing before them, i.e. each covers a 20' long by 10' deep area of floor when it falls. Covered characters are turned to green slime and gone, with no recourse possible due to the amount of slime. Note that the tapestries can be handled normally, just not yanked so as to tear them (and they are well affixed at the top); however, if any character is holding one when the room becomes agitated, it is 75% probable that the jerking motion will tear the thing. If these hangings are subjected to burning they instantly turn to brown mold and drain 4-32 (4d8) h.p. of heat from all characters within 5' of the mold (and it gets worse from there . . .). Note the secret door behind the tapestry on the west wall.[/sblock](I'll have to look up the old brown mold to see what EGG means by "and it gets worse from there . . .".

Note that I am not passing judgement on anything, here. I am just posting some examples for the discussion.

Quasqueton

 

[Gentlegamer]

In response to this question at Dragonsfoot:

Did Robilar order the orcs forward for this purpose (fodder to trip the traps), or were they merely scouting at his command and accidently set off the pit traps?

Rob Kuntz answered:

You have to know EGG like I do. When he called me in the middle of the night to "come on over" to playtest this "great" level he'd finished, well, the warning buzzers went off. The orcs were ordered forward due to this paranoia; and yes, indeed, they were scouting for traps--the hard way... lol!

Additionally, RJK verified that Robilar's alignment was lawful evil with neutral tendencies.

 

[Abraxas]

If you think 1E DMs were a bunch of tools that just ran the module because the levels stamped on the front cover told them them could, you're thinking of the wrong edition.

Every Edition has DMs who run things because of the levels stamped on the cover - 1E wasn't immune to this effect (but it also wasn't more prevalent in 1E).

I wasn't there to adjucate the loyalty issues between Robilar and his henchmen, but I don't find anything impossible about what's been described. You might be assuming that the orcs read the module and knew how dangerous it was?

Somewhere around these boards EGG stated that Robilar's henchmen all bought it in the first trap or 2 (and that it wasn't that many, I think he said 10 or so) and then Robilar negotiated the rest solo.
As for using hirelings/henchmen in general in this manner - if the 1E DMG guidelines were followed it would be pretty hard (and get harder as you went along) to convince them to do things like be the trap checkers in the ToH.

I'll have to look up the old brown mold to see what EGG means by "and it gets worse from there . . ."

Brown Mold - when exposed to heat begins growing (2, 4, 8 etc times its original size) when exposed to heat - meaning it could get out of hand pretty quickly.

Just some last comments.

I am curious about how the people who played through this tournament style - (which in my neck of the woods meant no henchmen or hirelings along for the ride, no resting to regain spells) - and had no character deaths negotiated some of the traps in the ToH. Did they find and avoid them all? Or did they trigger them and make their saves (when saves were allowed)?

I am also curious where the condescending "newer gamers who don't like the ToH must have been coddled and/or aren't up to the challenge of real adventuring" comments are coming from. How does not liking the ToH lead to those conclusions?

Last, given some of the comments around these boards I am prettty certain that my early gaming experiences were very different from the early D&D pioneers. For example, there are comments about using wishes and getting ressurrections during the course of the 1E adventures that really surprise me. When I played through these 1E modules we were no where near the level where access to wishes or ressurection was (even remotely) possible. And even if they were available - the norm for people I gamed with was to start a new character instead of ressurecting an old one.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Somewhere around these boards EGG stated that Robilar's henchmen all bought it in the first trap or 2 (and that it wasn't that many, I think he said 10 or so) and then Robilar negotiated the rest solo.
As for using hirelings/henchmen in general in this manner - if the 1E DMG guidelines were followed it would be pretty hard (and get harder as you went along) to convince them to do things like be the trap checkers in the ToH.

Rob's explanation of how Robilar motivated his orc servants:

"They were part of the 200+ I had barracked at the casstle. I brought 5 with me and the 3ed one disobeyed my order to go forward and Robilar slew him in front the others. That got the last two moving."

 

[merelycompetent]

...I am curious about how the people who played through this tournament style - (which in my neck of the woods meant no henchmen or hirelings along for the ride, no resting to regain spells) - and had no character deaths negotiated some of the traps in the ToH. Did they find and avoid them all? Or did they trigger them and make their saves (when saves were allowed)?

We didn't know anything about tournament style when we went through it. We followed the module as run by our DMs, who allowed us to rest and recover - per the module's DM notes. (Both DMs later pointed this out, since we were all trying to become better DMs. I recall wondering why the writers needed to give us permission to do something so obviously A Good Idea (tm).)

I am also curious where the condescending "newer gamers who don't like the ToH must have been coddled and/or aren't up to the challenge of real adventuring" comments are coming from. How does not liking the ToH lead to those conclusions?

I wonder this myself. The two groups I was in went through ToH for the *challenge*, because we'd heard that it was tough. It was tough. We also quickly understood that not everyone would enjoy it.

Last, given some of the comments around these boards I am prettty certain that my early gaming experiences were very different from the early D&D pioneers. For example, there are comments about using wishes and getting ressurrections during the course of the 1E adventures that really surprise me. When I played through these 1E modules we were no where near the level where access to wishes or ressurection was (even remotely) possible. And even if they were available - the norm for people I gamed with was to start a new character instead of ressurecting an old one.

Usually, we acquired powerful magic like that as part of the treasure. Since they were listed in the treasure troves of the modules, we just adjusted the gp to XP ratio up or down, depending on how easy the DM thought it was to get the treasure. So, for example, by the start of the D series, we had multiple Wish spells available to us from items. IIRC, there was also a Raise Dead or Resurrection in our bags by the end of the Slave Lords (IDHTBIFOM). Memory says that the Clone spell we used to bring back our Paladin (IIRC) at the end of ToH was by purchasing the service much earlier (and at hideous expense) from the wizards' guild in Greyhawk City. We bought one for each of us, thinking it might come in handy. We didn't expect it to happen so soon. I have it in my notes for the character I played. (Memory says that Clone was 7th or 8th level at the time. Our wizards weren't that high level.)

Before getting to the high levels (10+), we'd roll up a new character or, occasionally, go on a quest for the local priesthood to do a Raise Dead/Resurrection. After we had the ability to cast those spells among the party, we became *very* protective of our clerics. At one point, our thief had a Con of 6 (from 13), he'd been resurrected so many times.

 

[Delta]

S1 has pictures. Pictures are wicked awesome!