Is The Paladin Weak?

[Green Knight]

and, if you'll notice the most pure and holy of Arthur's knights was not known for his martial prowess

Sorry, but you're wrong, there. The most pure and holy of Arthur's knights was Galahad, and in the short period that he was on Earth, he was the greatest knight who had ever lived. Before that, Lancelot was the greatest knight who had ever lived, and Galahad beat him. Lancelot was pretty holy, too, although he had one major flaw, his affair with Guinevere, which is what kept him at succeeding at the quest for the Grail. The other two knights who succeeded in the quest for the Holy Grail were also great knights. The weaker knights were knights like Sir Kay, who weren't holy at all.

 

[The Blue Elf]

you're a newbie to Paladin threads on here, aren't you?

No, but I did see a lot of Paladins who die stupidly out of trying to be like Lord Soth who happen to be lawful evil. Reading his story about how he got stuck in Ravenloft it was interesting he didn't run to a open portal to his world were he came from he wanted to kill a monster, and his lawful idea he would not run from anyone not even a monster he slayed that monster and he was forever trap in that world.

 

[PowerWordDumb]

Very nice post, drnuncheon, and I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better if I'd tried.

 

[Umbran]

Sorry, but you're wrong, there. The most pure and holy of Arthur's knights was Galahad, and in the short period that he was on Earth, he was the greatest knight who had ever lived. Before that, Lancelot was the greatest knight who had ever lived, and Galahad beat him.

One fight does not a better warrior prove. Especially when Galahad was, IIRC, carrying an artifact (the Shield of Joseph of Aramathea) at the time.

Also, I quote from Bullfinch (italics my own):

"Then Sir Galahad rode into the midst of the meadow; and there he began to break spears marvelously, so that all men had wonder of him, for he surmounted all knights that encountered with him, except two, Sir Launcelot and Sir Perceval."

 

[Valiantheart]

It makes me wish that they designed the Paladin to have a bonus feat at every two levels so that the character could then be as a Paladin alone--a complete crusading warrior. Such would provide the Paladin with 1 character feat, 6 general feats, and 10 bonus feats--enough to embrace the above feats for example, and have two feats left over in which to augment the Paladin character's social abilities, or perhaps some other unusual feat or ability.

Thats a great idea!! I know lets give the Paladin and Ranger access to weapon specialization too. We have to give those classes ability requirments before you can take them of course. After all, only the elite can qualify for them. Then of course they would need a slighty slower XP progression too because that level of awesomness takes a little longer to achieve.

Thats what I call Progress .

 

[Valiantheart]

Sorry, but you're wrong, there. The most pure and holy of Arthur's knights was Galahad, and in the short period that he was on Earth, he was the greatest knight who had ever lived. Before that, Lancelot was the greatest knight who had ever lived, and Galahad beat him. Lancelot was pretty holy, too, although he had one major flaw, his affair with Guinevere, which is what kept him at succeeding at the quest for the Grail. The other two knights who succeeded in the quest for the Holy Grail were also great knights. The weaker knights were knights like Sir Kay, who weren't holy at all.

I thought Percival was Arthurs greatest night? Galahad and Gawain were the most pious.

 

[Voadam]

All you really need to be a knight is weapon skill (martial weapon prproficiencies) horsemanship, and heavy armor. A warrior could do it easily as can the aristocrat npc classes.

The paladin in the group I play in does just fine as a front line tank and knight in shining armor so I don't think they "need" to be improved. I also think they are relatively balanced with fighters just fine.

If you want paladin power to be extras and for them to fight as well as a fighter then make them a fighter that follows the knight feat path progression and create a paladin template that gets added on to deserving devout knights.

That may be truer to a vision of paladin status as a powerboost blessing rather than balanced against mundane classes like the rogue and fighter.

 

[Sejs]

One of the things I did for Paladins in my game was two-fold.

First, Remove Disease was changed into a scaling X/Week cure ability called Hand of Mercy. At 3rd, it did Remove Disease; at 6th it did Remove Disease or Calm Emotions; at 9th Remove Disease, Calm Emotions, or Remove Paralysis; at 12th Remove Disease, Calm Emotions, Remove Paralysis, or Remove Curse; at 15th Remove Disease, Calm Emotions, Remove Paralysis, Remove Curse or Restoration; at 18th it did Remove Disease, Calm Emotions, Remove Paralysis, Remove Curse, Restoration or Break Enchantment.

Second, when a paladin got an increase to Hand of Mercy, they could, at their option, instead take a Divine feat (Divine Might, Divine Shield, etc), Extra Turning, or Heighten Turning. But doing so would mean that they wouldn't increase HoM's available effects or it's number of uses per week.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Great stuff everyone! I like the Fighter as is, and as MMU1 mentioned, my games are *not* the ordinary! That said, I like the paladin as is, though I am considering adding in a bonus feat at every four levels; Currently, I actually use multiclassing and prestige classes to shape different paladin characters. I have found for example, that having characters start as a Fighter, and advance for several levels up to say, 10th level, before hearing the "call" to become Paladins. That tends to work out quite well, with a very martial paladin, though it takes a long time and a lot of work to get the character going though.

I also like the idea of as I think Umbran explained it--using the right tool for the job. That's very good. I'm actually conservative in making any drastic changes to the game, or to base classes. I have a tendency to let the base classes run as they are written. With prestige classes, I feel like that there is more latitude, as well as campaign justification and utility in designing specific specializations. I agree, not all Paladins are going to fit the Knight archetype. I can also see the merits in simply having a Lawful Good Fighter. I also use Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral Fighter/Clerics a lot in my campaigns. A Fighter (12) or (14) or (16) with Cleric (8), (6) or (4) tends to not only provide all the necessary combat feats, (1 character, +7 Bonus Fighter Feats (minimum) and (4) general feats; that's for a 12th level Fighter/8th level Cleric. Obviously, the more cleric levels add more spells and fewer feats, and the actual mix is an interesting process of balancing martial skills with divine spell-casting. Gee, I actually usually use Fighter/Clerics as most of my knight-templar type characters, though I also have several prestige classes of knight-templars.

Heh. I suppose I'm just thinking out loud with you all though. It's not like I am trying to start some kind of revolution or something. It comes to mind that Christine, who plays Bronwyn in my campaign, is a straight classed Human Paladin, and she doesn't have any problems in combat. I suppose it is simply a difference of merely looking at the character type from a different perspective vis a vis feats and such.

I like to think out loud though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Endur]

I've played Paladins since 3e came out.

I agree that Paladins never seem to have enough feats. But that's because I (like many others) want my Holy Warrior to compete with the fighters who get tons of feats.

And really, that's not a Paladin's job.

A Paladin's job is to smash evil.

This new 1 smite evil for every five levels is great. A major boost to Paladin effectiveness, particularly at high levels, where a Paladin can now smite 3 to 5 times a day.

I've experimented with lots of different 3e/3.5e feats.

My essential 3.5 Paladin feats list:
Divine Might (chr bonus to damage and all you lose is a useless turn undead attempt)
Power Attack

Other feats that are nice:

if you have a mount, Mounted Combat

If you expect lots of mounted combat/tournaments, Ride by Attack + Spirited Charge

Cleave + Great Cleave if you expect to fight multiple enemies at once. Especially if your GM lets you apply your smite bonus while cleaving.

Close Quarters Fighting/Improved Grapple: if you expect to fight lots of improved grab/grappling enemies.