Is the Psion class balanced?

[KarinsDad]

Generally true, but it is one of those spells that must be dealt with immediately or it will hamper everyone.

with a grapple check of caster level +8 and a number of ways to boost caster level it can become a pretty large problem. Similar in some ways to the various 'caster level or less do big bad things' spells.

But, you called it an "overpowered spell that people do not seem to mind".

Now, you seem to be backpedaling from that.

Is it overpowered because it must be dealt with immediately and because it grapples? If so, then it would seem that Web and Entangle, two and three levels lower respectively, are also "overpowered".

Or, is it not overpowered? Is it just a good spell like many other good spells? Very useful most of the time, but not game breaking.

In our game, the BBEG monster got Time Hopped and while the PCs prepared, the Warmage put Evard's Black Tentacles in the location where the BBEG would reappear. The BBEG had a good grapple and flew out of the Tentacles immediately. In our current campaign that started at 9th level and is now 11th, it has been cast 3 times and it has not once killed anyone. In fact, the only character trapped in it for more than 2 rounds at a time was paralyzed (due to Drow poison) at the time. Web and Entangle have proven more bothersome than that at lower level.

Just like all spells, Evard's is situationally dependent when it comes to power.

Ottos irresistable dance is an 8th level power with touch range that can remove a combatant for a few rounds, and it is only single target and is compulsion and mind effecting and only on living targets.

It also has no saving throw and it doesn't just grapple the opponent, it makes the opponent nearly helpless. The only three defenses against this spell are:

1) Immunity to mind control type spells.
2) Spell Resistance.
3) Having a very high touch AC.

There are many characters and monsters that do not have any of these three defenses. And, the third defense is only a delaying tactic. A 20 will hit anyone, regardless of touch AC and touch spells can be held.

And unlike Evard's, Otto's does not provide a protection versus melee or melee touch attacks. You generally cannot go up and hit an opponent in the Tentacles (unless they are at the edge). Anyone can go up and full round attack or touch with a melee touch spell a dancing opponent.

Otto's is 8th level because it is very close to a save or die spell with no save.

It is a huge spell. It's similar (except for range) to Hold Person and Hold Monster, but without a saving throw every round.

In at least a few ways the tentacles are actually stronger.

so yes, being able to tie up most/all of the party for 'just a few rounds' would make for a very powerful spell.

You mean like Color Spray or Sleep at first level? What good is magic if it is never powerful? That's why many NPCs should fear magic because it should often seem powerful to them.

Evard's and Otto's have different goals. One is to hamper and slightly damage a group of opponents. The other is to make a single opponent nearly helpless with very few ways to defend against it. Apples and Oranges.

You should be comparing Evard's to other fourth level hampering spells, not eighth level immobilizing spells.

 

[Scion]

But, you called it an "overpowered spell that people do not seem to mind".

Yep, and given what it does and how easily that would seem appropriate.

Although, many do mind it.

It also has no saving throw and it doesn't just grapple the opponent, it makes the opponent nearly helpless.

yeah, there are some differences, which I pointed out. But the level difference plus the power of the lower level one vs the higher level one is pretty indicative. Or at least a sign that one of the two might be a bit out of focus for where it should be.


Note that against an even level fighter type the bab will wash out, if the fighter type has an 18 str then the tentacles are still +4 ahead and so will win most of the time. Against anyone else they will have an even harder time of it.

If they have no contingency vs grapple then they are in massive trouble. But then they arent very bright either so that isnt much help.

Likely though it stops the entire group of foes for at least one round and forces them to expend resources.

Looking over the other spells of the same level it simply seems too strong.

You mean like Color Spray or Sleep at first level?

Sleep? 1 round casting time and only 4 hd effected and a save?
Color spray is pretty nice, likely too strong as well considering.

Looking over psionic first level powers nothing really comes close to color spray in sheer power. Interesting that.

What good is magic if it is never powerful?

You are making up your own strawman and trying to defeat it here.

Balance is important, powerful is not. Many things can be powerful while being or not being balanced.

 

[KarinsDad]

yeah, there are some differences, which I pointed out. But the level difference plus the power of the lower level one vs the higher level one is pretty indicative. Or at least a sign that one of the two might be a bit out of focus for where it should be.

Yes. One is mostly annoying, somewhat dangerous, and not too hard to bypass for prepared characters. The other is immobilizing with no saving throw. Hence, the reason for the level difference.

Note that against an even level fighter type the bab will wash out, if the fighter type has an 18 str then the tentacles are still +4 ahead and so will win most of the time. Against anyone else they will have an even harder time of it.

Yup. It means that the spell is not worthless. Fourth level spells shouldn't be worthless.

PS. You forgot about Rogues with Escape Artist. Most of them would have a fair chance of getting out as well. Raging Barbarians. Actually, any of the combatant types. Wild Shaping Druids. Dimension Dooring Wizards, Sorcerers, and Psions. Most large monsters.

Only Clerics, Bards, smaller monsters, unprepared arcane spell casters, and possibly Monks would have real serious problems with this.

If they have no contingency vs grapple then they are in massive trouble. But then they arent very bright either so that isnt much help.

Likely though it stops the entire group of foes for at least one round and forces them to expend resources.

And how is this different than Web or Entangle? Look at the area effect of Entangle. 40 foot radius. If you are near the middle of it, it does not matter that you made your Reflex save. You will not be getting out of it within a single round unless your Speed is high. That means, even if you make your saving throw, most characters will have to make a second saving throw minimally before getting out. And, most classes do not have good Reflex saves.

Look at Web. It is really difficult to get out of it (shy of setting it on fire and even that takes several rounds at 5 foot per round), even though it has a 20 foot radius.

When I discuss these types of things with you, it appears that you do not look at the big picture. You focus on some singular aspect of a spell and say it is too powerful because of that one aspect. You do not focus on the other aspects.

Evard's is fourth level. It SHOULD be more difficult to get out of than either Web or Entangle.

Looking over the other spells of the same level it simply seems too strong.

I disagree.

Compare Evard's to Solid Fog. Same level spells.

Solid Fog is in many ways worse than Evard's in many circumstances. Only the Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement characters can get out of it quickly. Everyone else is stuck for many rounds.

Sure, Gust of Wind will negate it. How many characters walk around with Gust of Wind in their pocket? Well, maybe a Wizard or two with a scroll. Hardly anyone else. No Wizard in the party, you are probably in deep trouble shy of a successful Dispel Magic.

So, while some characters get out of Evard's and some are stuck, very few characters get out of Solid Fog quickly without the appropriate magic and the enemy spellcaster just lays down round after round of area affect spells.

But, Solid Fog, like Evard's, will not be used just against spellcasting capable characters. Solid Fog is a LOT more useful against big monsters than Evard's. Pros and Cons. Everything is dependent on the situation.


Or, compare Evard's to Resiliant Sphere. Many opponents versus one. But if he fails his save (and all of the core characters but a Bard, Rogue, Ranger, or Monk have a good chance of that occurring), he is out of the battle shy of Dispel Magic or Dimension Door.

You see a Cleric, Resiliant Sphere him and if successful, you have seriously hampered his group unless someone still has a Dispel Magic handy (assuming the Dispel Magic works). Minimally, it will use up a valuable Dispel Magic for a single spell.

And, Resiliant Sphere works great against many monsters that would break right out of an Evard's. Many monsters have poor Reflex saves and most monsters have no way out of a sphere.

Pros and Cons.


Like I said, you do not appear to look at the big picture when you do comparisons. Here are two hampering same level spells which have a lot more utility and power depending on circumstances.

You dismised them outright as not as strong without considering their uses.

Sleep? 1 round casting time and only 4 hd effected and a save?
Color spray is pretty nice, likely too strong as well considering.

Looking over psionic first level powers nothing really comes close to color spray in sheer power. Interesting that.

True. But unlike Sleep, almost all Psionic powers are augmentable. So, they do not become less useful within a few levels.

Interesting that. Pros and Cons.

Spells often lose utility as you get higher level. They have damage caps. They have a similar DC as to when they were cast at lower level unless Heightened. They take up lower level slots at high level, but often aren't very useful. Cure Light Wounds at 18th level. It's only useful for stabilizing and possibly making a character conscious. It is not very useful for curing damage anymore.

Psionic powers typically do not have these issues. Hence, one important reason Psionics are more potent: Utility, even at higher levels. Plus, PP are not often wasted on lower level powers that are not very useful like slots are wasted on lower level spells that are not very useful.

But, the "pro-Psionics are balanced" people forget about the very low utility low level spells that are not very useful in a high level game.


Evard's Black Tentacles at 15th level with a 23 grapple against a Huge Dragon? That's a joke.

Empathic Feedback also 4th level? That still can do damage when augmented at 15 level (and lasting 2.5 hours) against many opponents, even Huge Dragons. No save. No spell resistance.

Or Intellect Fortress? That still halves the damage from the Huge Dragon's breath weapon, even NOT augmented at 15th level.

You are making up your own strawman and trying to defeat it here.

Balance is important, powerful is not. Many things can be powerful while being or not being balanced.

You are the one indicating that certain spells are too powerful. Not me.

You are the one with the strawman which you seem to have difficulty supporting.


Sure, Evard's can be devastating in the right circumstances. So can Entangle. You've just illlustrated that a fourth level spell in the right circumstances can be a little more potent than a first level spell.

 

[Elephant]

and you're not at a level where you can have a stilled dimension door prepped, you deserve to die.

Why in heaven's name would anyone STILL a Dimension Door? It makes no sense at all.

Dimension Door
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Travel 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)

(emphasis mine)

 

[KarinsDad]

Why in heaven's name would anyone STILL a Dimension Door? It makes no sense at all.

Maybe he meant Stilled Gaseous Form (for those who do not have DD).

Or Silent Dimension Door (useful when pinned with a hand over your mouth which could occur if you get both grappled and stunned in round one and pinned in round two, pretty rare though).

 

[irdeggman]

Not once.

Course, except of PCs, Psions tend to be rare in our campaign.

This I think is the basis for your observations that psionics are too powerful. The apparent (or at least implied) lack of balance between allies and foes. What I mean is that if a PC is psionic then there should be sufficient equivalent challenges to balance that character out.

If using "psionics are different" (which I'm guessing is the ruel in your game) then it is even more necessary.

 

[Scion]

Yes. One is mostly annoying, somewhat dangerous, and not too hard to bypass for prepared characters.

I am afraid that to me this just shows that you have never really used the spell in your games and/or never really look at grapple.

I believe that earlier you said all 5 party members got out fairly rapidly.

Likely this means that the fighter type(s) got lucky and rolled well and ran out and the caster types had spells (such as dim door) prepared to get out of it but they took some damage (I suppose they could've even failed the concentration check as well, DC 24 at level 7 is pretty rough).

So, it scattered the party and used up a lot of resources plus gave the opponents a round to do whatever they like.

Plus the party got lucky in that case. That was a 'best case scenario' where everything goes just right. It could have easily tied up the whole party for several rounds and dealt hundreds of damage and negating spells.

Yup. It means that the spell is not worthless. Fourth level spells shouldn't be worthless.

And yet you feel that psions are overpowered. I would have to say that there is something fishy between your two conclusions given the sheer power of this spell.

PS. You forgot about Rogues with Escape Artist. Most of them would have a fair chance of getting out as well. Raging Barbarians. Actually, any of the combatant types. Wild Shaping Druids. Dimension Dooring Wizards, Sorcerers, and Psions. Most large monsters.

Note that I simply mentioned one of the examples and not all.

Escape artist rogues will be able to have skill ranks of up to level +3 and add on dex, so they will be in a similar to better boat than the fighter types.. if they bothered to spend points in it at all given the amount of good skills that they have to choose from, there are only so many skill points to go around.

Say they did max it out and have a 20 dex at level 7, so they have a +15 to their check vs the tentacles +15 grapple. Even odds. So each round they have a 50/50 chance to stay in the grapple or not and takes a standard action to make the try.

Raging barb with starting 18 str goes to 22 for a +6 +bab to check which means +13 vs the +15 of the tentacles. Not good.

Wizard with a dim door spell memorized (highest level slot at this point so it isnt guarenteed, although it is very likely) vs a DC 24 concentration check (the grapple check is likely +3 or lower vs +15) with a likely concentration check of +13 or so. More than 50% chance to fail and then be stuck until someone rescues them.

Only Clerics, Bards, smaller monsters, unprepared arcane spell casters, and possibly Monks would have real serious problems with this.

And smaller pc's and even those above will likely fail at least half of the time.

And how is this different than Web or Entangle?

Web gives a reflex save at first which is dc 10+2+stat mod (say 17 at this point) so say the worst offender will be something like +4 (+2 base +1 dex +1 resistance) so 40% chance to succeed for the guy who is probably the worst off (although I guess some fighter types might have a lower than 12-13 dex, but that would seem odd).

Vs the best guy +11 = (+5 base, +5 dex, +1 resistance) for a 75% chance to succeed.

Plus, even after all of that someone could simply set it aflame, take a little damage, and be done with it.

In addition, if you cant anchor it there are some other issues. Quite a few restrictions there and a whole lot less power.


Entangle is a spell that only works in outdoor areas with certain types of plants, but there are people who come on occasionally and say that it is a bit strong for its level. It is definately a combat defining skill with a huge area. Personally though, when a character of mine is caught in it I either 1) make the save or 2) burn the plants in my area so that they can no longer grab me and then enjoy the freedom of no melee guys wanting to come get me in the area

When I discuss these types of things with you, it appears that you do not look at the big picture.

odd, I would have to say the same thing about you. You have said that your game experience is what you look at while I try to look at my game experience and others and situations that can come up that I havent even seen yet. Along the same lines I try to look at all of the rules at once and the ways they interact.

But, we should get away from the ad hominems.

Solid Fog

Solid fog doesnt allow anyone inside to be targetted directly and doesnt effect the spellcasting of those inside along with them automatically being able to work their way out of it.

And as you mentioned it has a low level spell which can destroy it readily. Plus one inside could dispel it. Or still dim door out of it without chance of failure. (it isnt likely but I have known characters to have a wind fan later on in their carears in order to get around certain bad effects such as this anyway)

And it has utility effects.

Completely different levels of power. But solid fog is still a solid spell choice. It just isnt overpowered.

Or, compare Evard's to Resiliant Sphere.

Single target, save negates, size restrictions (say a corridor that isnt large enough to support the sphere), the person inside may take whatever actions they wish, and the person inside is protected from detrimental effects from outside forces.

True. But unlike Sleep, almost all Psionic powers are augmentable. So, they do not become less useful within a few levels.

Oddly there are a lot of spells which are good at higher levels as well, without the need of being augmented.

The psionic equivalent of sleep is even worse than sleep is. A lot of psionics are like that, similar but weaker.

Evard's Black Tentacles at 15th level with a 23 grapple against a Huge Dragon? That's a joke.

So it is deadly vs pcs and a joke vs many nonpcs and yet this is a balanced spell? Not so much. All it means is that pcs have to worry about it while they have a harder time using it, especially against monstrous foes.

A dragon could even cast it on the party and be near/in the area without fear of it being able to even effect him.

Empathic Feedback also 4th level? That still can do damage when augmented at 15 level (and lasting 2.5 hours) against many opponents, even Huge Dragons. No save. No spell resistance.

When the creature hits the player in melee combat some of it reflects back. Although it should be subject to SR/PR. But then it is mindeffecting so at higher levels when it is able to reflect a decent amount of damage it is also easy to become immune to.

It only works against many opponents if you have many people striking you, which is never an enviable position to be in, especially for someone with d4 hd.

Or Intellect Fortress? That still halves the damage from the Huge Dragon's breath weapon, even NOT augmented at 15th level.

And this is a problem how? It takes a 4th level power slot known, 7pp, and the psion would be an idiot to try considering that it wouldnt offer any protection at all. Intellect fortress only works vs spells, powers and the xxx-like and only those that allow SR/PR. As a dragons breath is not one of the first and does not allow SR/PR anyway....

Sure, Evard's can be devastating in the right circumstances.

Overly powerful, as I have shown above.

When the best case scenario is a round and resources gone for most/all of the party and the best person trying is a 50/50 chance and everyone else will tend to be quite a bit below it and require a large amount of extra resources to be spent.. something might be wrong.

Considering the power of this spell and comparing it to other spells of the same level definately send up some major warning flags. Especially when the spell is more likely to effect pcs in an adverse way than it is to effect npcs.

 

[KarinsDad]

This I think is the basis for your observations that psionics are too powerful. The apparent (or at least implied) lack of balance between allies and foes. What I mean is that if a PC is psionic then there should be sufficient equivalent challenges to balance that character out.

Such as?

Our DM challenged us with normal monsters, normal NPC opponents, psionic monsters, and psionic NPC enemies. He hit us with ambushes, straight up fights, single BBEGs, BBEGs with multiple allies, etc. He occasionally gave us mysteries, puzzles, and traps. He even paralyzed my character in a one on one ambush. What more is there?

Granted, this PC was not good in social circumstances, but that was by choice. You can have a Psion very good at that.

It's easy to say that lack of balance is due to improper challenges, but examples that clearly illustrate the point would be more helpful.

Plus, if a DM is having to work hard just to challenge one given class, then by definition, that class is unbalanced.

If using "psionics are different" (which I'm guessing is the ruel in your game) then it is even more necessary.

You'd be guessing incorrect.

 

[Pielorinho]

But, we should get away from the ad hominems.

Quoted for truth.

Guys, please, please don't speculate about the other person's shortcomings as a debater, about whether they're not looking at the big picture, about whether they've never actually experienced these things. If you find yourself typing, "I have to say..." keep in mind that you DON'T have to say anything; you choose what to say, and you can always choose whether you want to say it in a sarcastic, contemptuous manner or in a polite, respectful manner.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Plus, if a DM is having to work hard just to challenge one given class, then by definition, that class is unbalanced.

An alternate hypothesis, and I have no idea if it's true or not. Karinsdad, you seem to me to have an excellent grasp of the rules, and a very strong set of opinions about the rules. Is there a possibility that, had you been playing a fighter, your character still would have been the one dealing the most damage and surviving the most combats? If you had been playing a cleric, might not the DM have needed to work hard just to challenge clerics?

I dunno; it just occurred to me that we may not be controlling for all variables .

Daniel

edit: just so it's clear, it may be possible to read "rules lawyer" into the above. That's not what I mean at all. I consider myself to be in a similar situation, in which my strong grasp of the rules gives me greater tactical power than some of the other players in our home game; my DM has occasionally wanted to ban spells from my spell list based on the lovely things I do with them.