Is the Psion class balanced?

[Scion]

Plus, if a DM is having to work hard just to challenge one given class, then by definition, that class is unbalanced.

Note that sometimes certain dms just cant deal with something. I have known dms which simply could not handle aoo's, at all. Anything aoo related was just beyond him. He was great with anything and everything else, push come to shove, and could think off the top of his head with great ease... but aoo? stick a fork in him.

Just because something is difficult for a person to handle does not mean it is unbalanced, there are other qualifiers that need to be met

Especially as, coming from the other direction, there could be something overpowered which a dm handles with ease and it never becomes a problem.. again, there are other areas which are much more important.. hence why I keep trying to get past 'well, when I used X in campaign Y it was broken/weak/deep fried and crunchy'.

 

[Scion]

Too many long posts, but it is a complicated subject.. that is a good excuse right?

 

[KarinsDad]

I am afraid that to me this just shows that you have never really used the spell in your games and/or never really look at grapple.

I believe that earlier you said all 5 party members got out fairly rapidly.

Likely this means that the fighter type(s) got lucky and rolled well and ran out and the caster types had spells (such as dim door) prepared to get out of it but they took some damage (I suppose they could've even failed the concentration check as well, DC 24 at level 7 is pretty rough).

You are self contradictory. First you claim that I have never really used it and then claim that when I did, my PCs got lucky.

Make up your mind.

Yes, Evard's can be powerful. Especially if your PCs (or NPCs) do not have anti-grappling tactics.


In our group, the Warmage was SOL because he was already paralyzed.

The Druid WildShaped into a Bear and escaped.

The Barbarian / Favored Soul / Bear Warrior raged, changed into a Bear and escaped.

The Fighter / Sorcerer / Spellsword had Fist of Stone up already and escaped in one round.

The Rogue / Psion / Shadowmind Dimension Doored out (and later on, grabbed the paralyzed Warmage who was at the edge of it and DDoored him out as well)

Most of them even got put back into Evard's a second time 5 or so rounds later and all of them still got out a second time.

Granted, it took all of them except the Psion and Spellsword two or more rounds to do so (the first time). It is a good action delaying spell and it can use up resources.

Big deal. Lots of spells can do that. It's hardly game breaking. It can be potent against PCs without anti-grappling tactics. Most intelligent players don't let their PCs get that way.

If a player is stupid enough to have a PC who does not have a way to get out of Entangles, Webs, or Evard's, then he better have some very helpful allies.

Overly powerful, as I have shown above.

When the best case scenario is a round and resources gone for most/all of the party and the best person trying is a 50/50 chance and everyone else will tend to be quite a bit below it and require a large amount of extra resources to be spent.. something might be wrong.

Considering the power of this spell and comparing it to other spells of the same level definately send up some major warning flags. Especially when the spell is more likely to effect pcs in an adverse way than it is to effect npcs.

You haven't shown anything except that you will ignore examples in other people's games where Evard's does not kill anyone. Even the paralyzed Warmage in our group was in it for a 6+ rounds and didn't die.

An Entangle at level one or a Web at level three followed by arrows or spells is just as deadly as Evard's. The only difference is that at those levels, there are virtually no ways to prevent / minimize it. A single Entangle or Web on a PC party can easily result in TPK.


That's precisely WHY the game has hampering spells. To hamper.

 

[Scion]

You are self contradictory. First you claim that I have never really used it and then claim that when I did, my PCs got lucky.

It is not contradictory, it is simply that your position doesnt make any sense.

In all of your examples there are pieces of information missing and the end result just doesnt follow from what you have said. When something is brought up that contradicts you there are excuses about other facts not yet in evidence.

I have shown the numbers on how the tentacles can be horribly overpowering, even the guy with the best chace is at 50/50 and that is simply too much considering its over reaching effects.

Until you can be a bit more clear about what you mean and what exactly your position is I am done with you.

 

[Twowolves]

Evard's Black Tentacles is easily more powerful than most any other 4th level spell. Yes, Solid Fog slows you down as well, but it doesn't damage you AND it prevents archers and spellcasters from targeting you. Get grappled near the center of an EBT and you will most likely not only spend a few rounds in there (even if you make your grapple check, you can't move out of the area before being grappled again next round), but you will take damage and get your arse shot off by enemies outside the area (no dex while grappling, and since the tentacles are immune to damage, no -4 penalty for firing into melee).

Web at least provides cover from outside attacks, does no damage, doesn't hinder spells as much (DC15 vs 20, + continuous damage) and requires specific terrain considerations to cast.

Entangle doesn't hinder movement as much (although it does have a larger area of effect), doesn't do damage, doesn't hinder spellcasting as much (DC 15 Concentration vs 20 for a grapple, plus requiring you have material components in hand), and is rather limited in use (without plants, it's useless).

Resilient Sphere is a save or nothing spell, and it's not hard at all to make that save, even for fighters. A first level spell will prevent it from working at all (Enlarge Person and now the sphere won't contain the target), and IF you are caught in in, you do not take damage or are prevented from doing ANYTHING except affecting the world outside the sphere. This is just as good as a defensive spell, since almost nothing brings it down. Yeah, if you fail your save, you are out of the fight, but neither are you hurt at all. In fact, the target can safely buff himself to the gills before the spell wears off (or he escapes).

 

[Dinkeldog]

I'm going to make one more suggestion.

I think, Scion and Karinsdad, you have both made your positions clear. I highly recommend that you both bow out of this thread before one or both of you gets a mandatory vacation.

 

[Nail]

... I consider myself to be in a similar situation, in which my strong grasp of the rules gives me greater tactical power than some of the other players in our home game; my DM has occasionally wanted to ban spells from my spell list based on the lovely things I do with them.

I've been in the same situation with my Clr.

 

[Storyteller01]

100 points? Huh? ... <snip>

An attempt at sarcasm.

 

[irdeggman]

Such as?

Our DM challenged us with normal monsters, normal NPC opponents, psionic monsters, and psionic NPC enemies. He hit us with ambushes, straight up fights, single BBEGs, BBEGs with multiple allies, etc. He occasionally gave us mysteries, puzzles, and traps. He even paralyzed my character in a one on one ambush. What more is there?

My point was based on your statement that except for PCs psions were rare. That in and of itself makes things uneven.

It's easy to say that lack of balance is due to improper challenges, but examples that clearly illustrate the point would be more helpful.

Sorry I can't give you any because I'm limited to what you supplied as examples of your game.

Plus, if a DM is having to work hard just to challenge one given class, then by definition, that class is unbalanced.

Nope. No more so than including wizards and magic in a game if there are PC arcane casters in the party.

A point to make though is that a properly handled Inspired (if using Eberron source material) should literally have kicked your characters' behinds. They are extremely powerful. They get extra pp (1/level) all of the quari's psi like and spell like abilities (except for ex and su ones) - they still add up a lot based on the "type" of quari sharing the Inspired's body.

If the DM didn't do this he/she was doing you an injustice in presenting the true power of your opponent.


If as you say that you weren't using psionics are different then you were using they are the same (or transparent) which means that a whole lot of magics would be very effective for countering things, dispel magic, protection spells, etc.

You had already pointed out that the DM had messed up by allowing immediate actions even when flat-footed - so there is at least one data point to a (at least) weakly prepared DM.

You didn't mention it but I would have hoped that your DM had using a std action psionic power generating AoO.

 

[helium3]

I could have said: +2 Dex, -1 Size, +5 Natural = +6

Ahhhh . . . I didn't realize that's what you were doing.

I have people at my gaming table who start up all sorts of calculations when wild shaping or polymorphing or whatever. I tell them: Take the AC of the creature. Add in your still useable items and spells. Done.

I don't get it. When someone polymorph's or wild shapes, your'e assuming that they're doing it only for the Armor Class? What about the modifications to strength and dex, not to mention natural attacks, modes of movement and extraordinary attacks?