Is the Psion class balanced?

[helium3]

It is pretty clear here that your analysis is incomplete and the psion is overpowered.

Why do you have to talk down to people like this? It doesn't do anything to help your argument and just makes people (well, me at least) ignore what your'e saying. I assume you'll be replying with something along the lines of "I'm already ignoring you so neener-neener?"

1) Neither class will hardly EVER buff up this much.

You are correct in this assertion. However, your initial argument was that your psion could buff up to ridiculously high armor classes and hold off the BBEQ all by herself, and that was one indicator of how psionics were unbalanced. I was simply responding to this. You picked the example, not me.

So, all the analysis proves is that the Psion can buff up higher if necessary, not that the Psion will be smoking through her PP more.

Yes, the Psion can in fact buff AC up higher by a whole 6 points. However, as I pointed out with my very clear cut and straight forward example, this is done by expending a greater percentage of the character's daily "oomph" than the wizard. The Psion was, in fact, smoking through her Power Points. If you're unwilling to concede this very clear and obvious fact, then we really don't have much to discuss.

2) The Wizard does not have a 6D6+5 weapon he can wade into melee with.

Actually, an Elan wizard COULD have this ability. It's not a "psions only" feat. Heck, if a non-psionic character wanted it, all they have to do is take the "wild talent" feat. Sure, it's an extra feat, but as you have so correctly pointed out, it's a nice set of abilities to have. It's not as if psychic weapon and the rest of that tree are feats that Psions get for free.

3) If the Wizard has his defenses lowered due to Dispel Magic or time, he rarely if ever has all of them available for a fight later in the day. The Psion has access to every power at all times as long as she still has PP. The Wizard has to rely on (typically lesser caster level and hence easier to dispell) scrolls.

So can I assume that you also think it's unfair and a destabilizer of "balance" that sorcerers and bards have exactly the same ability to cast spontaneously as psionic PC's?

4) The Psion can easily manifest while grappled. The Wizard needs a roll. The Psion can easily manifest while pinned or paralyzed. The Wizard (typically) cannot.

From the SRD:

Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

From the Psionic SRD:

To manifest a power while grappling or pinned, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the power you’re manifesting) or lose the power.

So yes, more psionic powers are going to be castable while being grappled or pinned but a concentration check still needs to be made. I would also assume that the requirement that the power have a casting time of one standard action or less applies, but this isn't in the SRD, so I'm sure the RAW-Folks will argue with me on this.

Is psionics clearly better than arcane magic in these instances? Yes. Is it so much better as to be considered broken? That's up to debate, I think. I don't believe it's clearly as broken as you seem to think it is. I think that most casters that are being grappled would want to focus on getting away, and the best spells for that (dimension door and teleport) are still available. Also, when looking at broken-ness, you have to take into account how often the situation where the potential broken rule is applied. That being said, this is an example of where a Psionic character has it better than an Arcane character.

5) The Psion can heal herself and others. The Wizard cannot.

Yes, a third level spell that heals a little better than a cure light wounds cast by a 1st level cleric. Granted, it can be augmented all the way up to a nineth level spell that can heal a whopping 7d12 (on average about 45.5 hit points). That's a seriously unbalanced ability. I suppose you also throw a hissy fit whenever a bard casts a healing spell? Now, if you're arguing simply that it's unbalanced because a wizard cannot cast similar spells then I suppose you're right. Of course, if you state that psions can only have powers that wizards have analgous spells for, they essentially become sorcerers with a different mechanic for handling spells per day. What exactly is the point of that? Psions have a selection of powers that are different from those of arcane casters so that the classes are actually different, not just the same class with different spellcasting mechanics.

Let's look at what might actually happen in a game as opposed to the maxxed out version that almost never happens.

As I said earlier, you're the one that started off with the example of your inspired slayer being buffed up into the high 30's with respect to AC and able to hold off the BBEG all by herself. Stop trying to get so much mileage out of trying to imply that I'm attempting to set up some kind of straw-man.

Mage Armor / +4 AC / 1 PP
Shield / +4 AC / 1 PP
Polymorph / +4 AC / 7 PP

AC Improvement / +12
Rounds To Cast / 2 (assume Mage Armor cast ahead of time)
Total Expenditure / 9 PP
Percent of Daily Total / 15%
Point AC Per PP / 4:3

Inertial Armor / +7 AC / 7 PP
Force Screen / +4 AC / 1 PP
Thicken Skin / +1 AC / 1 PP
Metamorphosis / +4 AC / 7 PP

AC Improvement / +16
Rounds To Cast / 3 (assume Inertial Armor cast ahead of time, although TS is often ahead of time too)
Total Expenditure / 16 PP
Percent of Daily Total / 21%
Point AC Per PP 1:1

Yes, the Wizard used less of his % ability. He also has 4 less AC for this battle and several other battles in the day.

First of all, when doing an analysis like this you HAVE TO compare apples to apples. So, it's somewhat bad form to have the spell casting selection different between one case and another. It makes a direct comparison more difficult. So, I would remove the thicken skin so that they're both casting the same number of spells.

That being said, the crucial difference between the wizard case and the psion case is that the wizard cast a 1st level spell, followed by another 1st level spell followed by a fourth level spell. In the psion case, the psion cast a fourth level spell, followed by a 1st level spell followed by a first level spell followed by another fourth level spell. If we drop the thicken skin, the only difference in the two routines is that the wizard cast a 1st level spell to improve his armor bonus, whereas the psion cast a 4th level spell to improve his armor bonus. It's ludicrous to think that a psion would manifest a 4th level power to get the benefits of a 1st level spell.

But, you looking at percentage is totally inaccurate and one flaw in your reasoning.

In your maxxed example, the Wizard has 41 PP remaining. The Psion has 40 PP remaining. So, even in your extremist pushed to the limit example, the Psion is ACed up more and still has the same amount of power left over.

Of course the psion is going to have more total "oomph" than a wizard. They're spontaneous casters and their more limited spell selection is to be compensated by a correspondingly increased level of said "oomph." If you think the above is a problem, then I expect to see you posting screeds about how unbalanced sorcerers are as well.

That being said, if you can show me that a Psion has as much "oomph" as a Sorcerer, I would readily agree that psions probably have too many power points per day.

More AC. More power left over. Can Fight well in melee without Metamorphosis / Polymorph. Can heal. Etc., Etc., Etc.

Is the difference starting to become apparent yet?

So what are your complaints really?

Your complaint about fighting in melee isn't valid when you consider that there's nothing preventing a wizard from having the same feats, though in the case of a non-psionic races, they would have to additionally take the wild talent feat. If a psion had martial weapon proficiency and a better BAB progression, I'd certainly agree. But since we're talking about feats that are generally available to anyone at roughly the same cost, I don't.

You're flat out wrong when it comes to complaining that psions have too much "oomph" relative to a wizard. They abosolutely should be able to cast more spells per day than a wizard of the same level. If you have a problem with that then can I assume you also have the same problem with Sorcerers? Psions certainly shouldn't have as much power as a sorcerer, and if they do then that's a definite problem.

As for the rest of it, I'll freely admit that some Psionic powers are better than the Arcane counterpart by virtue of being augmentable. In the case of Intertial Armor and Force Screen versus Mage Armor and Shield, what it really boils down to is that Psions in effect have access to higher level versions of those spells that simply don't exist in the Wizard spell list. Why is that? I dunno. Ask the game designers. My guess is that the Psion is nothing more than an example of how Sorcerers ought to work.

Oh yes, and the lack of casting components does make psionic characters less vulnerable to situations where non-psionic casters need to worry. How often in game has that actually mattered? For me, not very often. Maybe it's mattered more in the games you've played in, and if so, that's too bad.

 

[helium3]

But, you called it an "overpowered spell that people do not seem to mind".

Now, you seem to be backpedaling from that.

Is it overpowered because it must be dealt with immediately and because it grapples? If so, then it would seem that Web and Entangle, two and three levels lower respectively, are also "overpowered".

Or, is it not overpowered? Is it just a good spell like many other good spells? Very useful most of the time, but not game breaking.

From my experience, Evards is one of those spells that starts out nasty and tends to get nastier the higher the level of play gets, up to a certain point where it becomes generally inneffective. Don't forget that you're adding caster level to the grapple check. So, the grapple check of EBT compared to a character with a +1 BAB progression is going to scale at the same rate. Against classes that don't have +1 BAB progression, the power of the spell scales more rapidly than characters ability to escape from it. After a while, all casters will always have a spell on hand to get out of it.

 

[KarinsDad]

A point to make though is that a properly handled Inspired (if using Eberron source material) should literally have kicked your characters' behinds. They are extremely powerful. They get extra pp (1/level) all of the quari's psi like and spell like abilities (except for ex and su ones) - they still add up a lot based on the "type" of quari sharing the Inspired's body.

If the DM didn't do this he/she was doing you an injustice in presenting the true power of your opponent.

So, are you claiming that our DM did not handle the Inspired correctly and did not present us with a serious threat?

Or are you claiming that the players in our game were incapable of overcoming correctly presented serious threats on our own?

You appear to be shocked that we drove her and her Kineticist ally off on multiple occasions and eventually killed them.

All I know is that she did kick our butts a lot, but we managed with tenacity to drive her off each time (and actually, we only fought her 4 times total). The key to defeating her was to ignore her hired guns (except for the spellcasters) and to focus most of our attacks on her. Even powerful opponents can get worn down if most of the PCs are focusing on them. Course, we tend to do this as a matter of course for most "spell casters". Try to limit spell casters (or manifesters) to as few rounds of actions as possible, even if it means using up some of your more potent resources for the day.

PS. Elans have it all over Inspired. Inspired are tough, but they are still limited to one action per round shy of Quicken or Shism. Elans can do a defensive action (Resistance or Resiliance) along with an offensive one every round.

You had already pointed out that the DM had messed up by allowing immediate actions even when flat-footed - so there is at least one data point to a (at least) weakly prepared DM.

Like I said, it's possible he messed up. It's also possible that I am misremembering since it was over a year ago.

Again though, you are implying that the DM was incompetent. Pretty bold words based on a single data point that may or may not be accurate.

Maybe you should knock that off.

You didn't mention it but I would have hoped that your DM had using a std action psionic power generating AoO.

Of course. Just like spells. Unless you make your Manifest Defensively check. Or, if you are willing to take the AoO, especially with an often higher AC.

 

[KarinsDad]

From my experience, Evards is one of those spells that starts out nasty and tends to get nastier the higher the level of play gets, up to a certain point where it becomes generally inneffective. Don't forget that you're adding caster level to the grapple check. So, the grapple check of EBT compared to a character with a +1 BAB progression is going to scale at the same rate. Against classes that don't have +1 BAB progression, the power of the spell scales more rapidly than characters ability to escape from it. After a while, all casters will always have a spell on hand to get out of it.

I agree. At 7th level, it is real strong against half the classes. As you get higher up, there are more ways to defeat it.

As DM, I cast Evard's on the PCs again this afternoon. The 10th level PC Warmage who died some time back had turned into a Vampire Spawn Warmage. He is intelligent, more capable than before, and he knows the PCs tactics. So, he Fireballed them in the surprise round, Evard's them in round one, and dropped Cloudkill on them in round two. Unfortunately for him, the Spellsword again got out in round one and dropped 40+ points of damage on him in round two and he had to flee, so he did not get a round three attack.

And again, they mostly got out of the Evard's in fairly short order (one PC is 11th level, the rest are a few hundred XP shy of 11th). The only PC who was still stuck in it after round 2 was the party Wizard (the previous player of the Warmage) and that was because he had cast both of his Teleports that day and did not also take a Dimension Door. But, the Spellsword Dispelled the Evard's in round three and so they did not have to resort to anything extreme to free the Wizard.

So in at least our game, it has not been an overpowered spell, at least at 9th or 10th levels.

 

[The Iron Mark]

Myth: The XPH is overpowered.

Read it. NOW.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

So can I assume that you also think it's unfair and a destabilizer of "balance" that sorcerers and bards have exactly the same ability to cast spontaneously as psionic PC's?

I'm not going to get too much into this thread o' doom, but I had to pull out this point for rebuttal. If a sorcerer has used his 2 7th level spell slots for the day, he cannot expend a 3rd and 4th level slot to cast another th level spells. He is done casting 7th level spells, no matter how much he might need another one. A psion, on the other hand, can expend every single one of his power points on 7th level powers, and is never stuck with no options but 4 cantrips and 3 1st level spells. This is far more flexible "casting" than the sorcerer or bard, and cannot be ignored when examining the power of the psion's abilities.

If a sorcerer or bard could spent 4 cantrips to cast a 2nd level spell, they would have "exactly the same ability to cast spontaneously as psionic PCs". As it is, they don't.

 

[irdeggman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
A point to make though is that a properly handled Inspired (if using Eberron source material) should literally have kicked your characters' behinds. They are extremely powerful. They get extra pp (1/level) all of the quari's psi like and spell like abilities (except for ex and su ones) - they still add up a lot based on the "type" of quari sharing the Inspired's body.

If the DM didn't do this he/she was doing you an injustice in presenting the true power of your opponent.

So, are you claiming that our DM did not handle the Inspired correctly and did not present us with a serious threat?

Or are you claiming that the players in our game were incapable of overcoming correctly presented serious threats on our own?

What I am saying is that if PCs can easily plow through encounter {which is pretty much the impression you have given everyone for your psion} that the DM is not doing his/her job. It is clearly spelled out in the DMG that an equal El encounter should use (on average) 25% of a party’s resources. Since this is (obviously) the BBEG this should be more.

You appear to be shocked that we drove her and her Kineticist ally off on multiple occasions and eventually killed them.

All I know is that she did kick our butts a lot, but we managed with tenacity to drive her off each time (and actually, we only fought her 4 times total).

Well now this puts things into a more reasonable perspective. Amazing how much can be learned when more detail is provided. If it took 4 encounters to “defeat” the Inspired then this should serve to point out that psions are clearly not as overpowering as you claim they are.

The key to defeating her was to ignore her hired guns (except for the spellcasters) and to focus most of our attacks on her. Even powerful opponents can get worn down if most of the PCs are focusing on them. Course, we tend to do this as a matter of course for most "spell casters". Try to limit spell casters (or manifesters) to as few rounds of actions as possible, even if it means using up some of your more potent resources for the day.

Well since you did not give “any” examples of encounters that your elan psion was in it was very difficult to put things into perspective. Combine that with your assertation that your elan psion had managed to plow through most opponents (implied without much of a sweat) what other deduction could I have made?

PS. Elans have it all over Inspired. Inspired are tough, but they are still limited to one action per round shy of Quicken or Shism. Elans can do a defensive action (Resistance or Resiliance) along with an offensive one every round.

See link posted by Iron Mark (thanks by the way it is very good material). It is not a “free” action it is an immediate action which takes up the swift action for next round, essentially allowing one every other round (the elan will end up taking damage on at least one round).

For example in the bathhouse scene you laid out.

2 attempted CdG in sequential rounds. Well since a CdG is an automatic hit that does a critical your elan could have negated the first one (at a fairly hefty pp cost) but the second one couldn’t have been negated since his swift action was already performed for that round and the damage had been done before his next action – where he could use another swift action.

Inspired have a heck of lot more pp to use for augmentation purposes, and as you have pointed out augmentation is the key to buffing up the character. Their psi like abilities don’t draw from their pp pool.



Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
You had already pointed out that the DM had messed up by allowing immediate actions even when flat-footed - so there is at least one data point to a (at least) weakly prepared DM.

Like I said, it's possible he messed up. It's also possible that I am misremembering since it was over a year ago.

Again though, you are implying that the DM was incompetent. Pretty bold words based on a single data point that may or may not be accurate.

Maybe you should knock that off.

See earlier an dplease stop putting words into my posts. I was making an observation based on information provided. If I was not given sufficient information well then. . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
You didn't mention it but I would have hoped that your DM had using a std action psionic power generating AoO.

Of course. Just like spells. Unless you make your Manifest Defensively check. Or, if you are willing to take the AoO, especially with an often higher AC.

I am not implying the DM is incompetent and it is poor to put such words in my posts. I had said that if the DM had not handled the Inspired “correctly” then he/she was doing you a disservice. This was based on the information you had provided, no more and no less.



From your posted recollection of the events:

Surprise Round: Attack

Can’t use immediate action to negate this one since PC is flatfooted. {If DM allowed this, which you aren’t sure of but think he/she did – then first DM error.}

Round One: Full Round Action to pull opponent 5 feet into tub of water, paralyzed character cannot resist, so is held under by weight of attacker automatically

What benefit does this do from the assassin’s PoV? Drowning takes several rounds.
{Potentially second DM error, by not using NPC’s abilities to max.} Could/should have instead attempted a CdG.

Inserting assumption here that Elan character performed some psionic action, although not specified in your post. Generates an AoO which requires concentration check in order to allow completion of psionic manifestation. {If AoO was successful, need to make concentration check to get off manifestation and then could negate by using immediate action which uses next round’s swift action – but that will cause a skip in the following chain of negating damage with immediate actions, IMO you would choose to negate the CdG vice an AoO normally so end up taking this damage.}

Round Two: Attempt Coup De Grace

CdG – auto critical hit. Elan PC uses ability to negate damage (hence using up next round’s swift action)

Insertion of psion’s manifest action. {again not mentioned, but hard to imagine you didn’t do something}. Generates an AoO – if hits can’t negate since used used up next round’s swift action to negate CdG (smart choice would be to use it on any CdG vice an AoO) and ned to make concentration check to get of manifestation.}

Round Three: Attempt Coup De Grace

Auto critical. Can negate by using immediate action (and next round’s swift action) but at a pp cost (2 hit points per pp and since damage is at least (d4 +STR x2) for a dagger starts to add up).

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Myth: The XPH is overpowered.

Read it. NOW.

no. If it has some useful points to make, make them.

 

[Scion]

KarinsDad I would appreciate if you would attribute your quote properly. Why you put my name in instead of the person you are quoting I have no idea.

I'm not going to get too much into this thread o' doom, but I had to pull out this point for rebuttal. If a sorcerer has used his 2 7th level spell slots for the day, he cannot expend a 3rd and 4th level slot to cast another th level spells. He is done casting 7th level spells, no matter how much he might need another one. A psion, on the other hand, can expend every single one of his power points on 7th level powers, and is never stuck with no options but 4 cantrips and 3 1st level spells. This is far more flexible "casting" than the sorcerer or bard, and cannot be ignored when examining the power of the psion's abilities.

It is true that the psion can use pp in a much more fluid way than the sorc can. Of course when they are both useing 7th level spells/powers the sorc has 46% more pp equivalent than the psion does at base, easier access to free scaling abilities, a much larger pool of spells to pick from, and more total spells known than powers known (although this last isnt a useful comparison point given the different nature of what they will know).

The sorc can likely cast at least 4 7th level spells a day at this point, although 5 is possible. 4 7th level powers is equivalent to 52 pp, or about a third of the psions total base pp for the day. The sorc then has 6 6th level spells to cast at least, which is 66 pp equivalent, which is over a third of the base.

Which means that the psion can indeed put out the higher level abilities more often, but the sorc will be going strong long after the psion is completely out.

When the psion burns lower amounts of pp for utility it deplets them faster, when the sorc uses the low level spells for utility he might not even notice. He probably has 6 0th, 8 1st, 8 2nd, 8 3rd, 8 4th all there for utility and combat use for things that do not require saves. The sorc definately wins out in that kind of game, they simply have 'much' more total ability for the day.

Part of the comparison is thrown off though because of the sorcs delayed access. Personally, I see no reason for the sorc to even have delayed access. Maybe someday they will fix that

Which also means that it is a difficult comparison point as well. Each has some pros and cons. Overall I think the psion comes out ahead because of his bonus feats and lack of delayed progression, but I think that is a problem with the sorc (of course the sorc not having to worry about focus in order to do a great deal of things is a pretty huge boon too..hmm).

If a sorcerer or bard could spent 4 cantrips to cast a 2nd level spell, they would have "exactly the same ability to cast spontaneously as psionic PCs". As it is, they don't.

Note that psions dont even get cantrips. They have to use higher level slots to do similar things. Detect psionics is a 1st level power, Detect magic is a cantrip. And there are are other examples of this sort of thing as well.

So, from the psions point of view, the sorc and bard have a ton of extra 1st level abilities for free Since 0th level are generally only good for utility this adds a ton of extra utility to them, especially at low levels.

 

[Scion]

no. If it has some useful points to make, make them.

There are two such threads and they make useful points in many different ways over the course of 44 pages so far.. some of the points made are done well, some not so much, but everyone understands things in slightly different ways so maybe one explanation will be unhelpful while another is clear as a bell.

But these threads are mainly for things which people feel are overpowered but generally are not, although it does give a few examples of things which could be done if the dm feels very strongly about it so that they will at least consider still giving psionics a chance.

Thinking about another thread I posted on recently.. I would so like psions to have the equivalent of haste.. it is just such a good party buffer.. extra movement and a few little bonuses plus that extra attack on a full attack.. it is massive power!