Is the Psion class balanced?

[Scion]

Psionics is more balanced than anything else.

Glad you agree.

Your ability to discern the inner thought processes of other people is amazing.

It is even easier when they say it directly.

'yeah, gate is overpowered and destroys the game, but that is ok.. oh my god! that psion got to choose whether to do fire or cold damage! broken!!'

It isnt like respones along those lines are uncommon. In fact, they are disturbingly common.

But, if you dont feel that the comment applies to you then maybe it doesnt. That does not mean that it doesnt apply to others however.

Still though, there are many people who simply see the word 'psionic' and think 'overpowered' or something similar without any actual proof one way or the other. It doesnt make any sense, but there it is.

So, many people who thinks that Psions are imbalanced are doing so because their campaign favors certain other classes?

Many campaigns favor certain play styles over others. If you feel this is not the case then I would have to simply say that you are wrong.

Some games have many encounters between rest periods, others very few. Some have humanoid type creatures almost to the exclusion of all types while some are purely monstrous and nonhumanoid. Some have a good amount of high level magic others nearly none. Some have more magical items than others. Some use lots of smaller creatures while others use fewer, more powerful creatures. Some never allow any talking type skills while other campaigns use no/almost no fighting to speak of.

Each of these factors favors some bulids over others. Some even make certain builds completely useless while others are horribly overpowered.

Generally though a good variety of these within various ranges makes for a well balanced campaign, which is best. But certainly there are issues where one build will wind up being stronger than others simply based on the situation.

None of us can think for ourselves now. We complain about Psions because of how our campaigns are set up. Right.

If that is what you think you are doing then ok. But those comments of yours seem contradictory even amongst themselves and do not have to do with what I have said.

Guess you haven't read about Wild Surges or Overchanneling.

And again we get to people not knowing the rules. I would suggest you reread the abilities, you have apparently missed rules.

Also note that your responses seem overly hostile given the context. I realize that this is a touchy subject, and that you may disagree with my comments, but I have seen them to be true in nearly every case. Apparently even in yours here, since wild surge and overchannel both back up what I have said.

Generally speaking, when a person is having a major balance problem, it is because they are using their brains.

Now it appears that you are saying only people who do not use their brains can have a balanced campaign. Although likely you meant it in some other way.

If Psions were truly balanced, then you'd be seeing a lot of experienced gamers and knowledgeable rules people here supporting your position.

lol.. your logic does not follow. You have a supposition and a conclusion, but they are completely disparate.

The arguements against psions being balanced usually make so many assumptions or produce 'facts' which are actually false as to be completely useless for a balance discussion.

I have seen psions in games I have played in and run, there have never been any balance problems with them beyond the normal ones for casters in general. No general power level overall was more than the other caster types. Actually, there are quite a few which are well below par.

It seems like the only way psions could be accepted is to be so far below par that no one would ever want to play one. But then I bet even then someone would come by and say they were broken, maybe because they could beat down a commoner.

But, you will not see that because many of the people here, especially the people who have actually had psions in their gaming sessions, are capable of understanding abuse when they see it.

Then they should realize just how much more abuse that the other caster types can put up and yet still be accepted for whatever reason.

There is a general level of hostility towards psionics on this board in general. As such I wouldnt expect too many to back them for fear of reprisal or simply because they go to other places to discuss them.

Oh, you mean like Burrowing Power through a Telekinetic Sphere were very few enemies can affect you?

No, how about the need of the sphere to be of a pretty hefty diameter by the rules. So large in fact that most of the time it wouldnt be very useful.

Or the dm ignoring that a simple fog type spell would negate most of its usefulness.

Or the fact that the psion in question there had some 'very' impressive stats to back up the character. Remember, it isnt always the race/class, it could also be the stats behind it. A commoner with 100's in each stat would be a force of nature, but still just a commoner.

Or, buffing yourself to have a higher AC by 5 or 10 or even more than any other PC in the party can do?

I guess you mean by spending quite a few rounds and every power known plus possibly the majority of your pp for the day and it only lasting a few rounds besides?

yeah, thats power.

Although, I still doubt it is higher than what other characters could do, or if it is the amount of resources spent would be so high as to make it effectively impossible.

it is interesting how when people compare psions the psion somehow has every discipline and every power and unlimited pp and unlimited time

My 10th level Psion could get her AC up into the high 30s if she wanted and she held off the BBEG monster by herself on multiple occasions while the rest of the PCs regrouped or ran away.

hmm.. 10th level cleric.

Platemail +3, tower shield +3, fighting defensively = 30 with only two spells cast and they last hours per level (14 hours in this case) and before taking into account anything else.

Add in shield of faith (+4 deflection) and we are up to 34

+1 from dex seems pretty easy, lets make it a mithril fullplate and darkwood tower shield to make it +2 instead.

Now we are at 36.

5 ranks in tumble would make it 37

Sounds like high 30's really. sure, it takes some sacrifice, but I bet that the psion has to make some sacrifices as well. And really, all but 4 of it lasts most of the day with very little prep time. Which is better? Say 39 with a minute of prep time and lasts for rounds or 33 but it lasts most of the day.

Or getting the equivalent of an unlimited use Rod of Metamagic Energy Substitution (all energies, or 3 such rods with one energy type each, depending on how you look at it) with ALL of your Energy powers?

Which of course merely makes the energy powers actually viable vs the horrible pile of goo they tend to be at higher levels.

Making something actually viable by adding some versitility in the energy type makes it broken? hmm.. from 'nearly useless' to 'broken'. Interesting. I dont agree in the least, but you do have an interesting point of view here.

Or time powers at low to mid level as opposed to high level for everyone else?

I guess you mean time hop here. Nice little power, definately has some cool uses, I dont know anyone who considers it overpowered however.. unless you consider time hop overpowered?

Don't get me wrong. There are imbalances in core rules and the Complete books as well (e.g. Spell Channeling for Spellsword), but they are fewer and further between than in the XPH.

Obviously we have different 'core' books in mind. The amount of imbalances just in the core is an order of magnitude greater than in the 3.5 psionics handbook, let alone getting into some of the crazieness that exists in a few of the complete books, especially when you start mixing and matching.


It is comments like that which make me not even want to look at your comments karinsdad. It simply has no basis as far as I can tell.

Even looking simply at prcs caster types tend to have full caster progression + a bunch of beanies for little to no sacrifice. There are a few exceptions of course, but this is generally true.

Psionics mostly has prcs which are heavly 'under' powered. there is one that is questionable, but mainly only because the srd changed it in a stupid way so it isnt technically even in the handbook.

caster types have much better novas which are easier to pull off and use less resources, yet if the psion can even do 'half' of what the other does he is decried as broken while the other guy gets a pat on the back and a, 'you silly caster you'. Insanity runs rampant.


It isnt that there arent some issues here and there, it is that even though there are so few as compared to the rest of the system and yet the others are ignored and/or overlooked while anything and everything which might somehow or someway be broken/overpowered in some situation anywhere for psionics suddenly makes the whole system bad.. and not just that one part.

Senseless and rather unfair in a comparison process.

 

[Scion]

Isn't it obvious that he's Psionic?

Did the crystal dragon descriptor give me away?

I'm not in this forum much because the tone here can get very... catty. Don't like that.

I leave every now and then because of that as well.. it seems like some here purposefully go out of their way to be insulting.. although most are fine.

I always try to assume it is simply one person using wording which another finds offensive, even if it wasnt meant that way. It just gets used by default because while talking about rules one falls into certain modes of thinking.. ahh well..

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I was typing while you posted this. Hopefully my last post was still within the lines

 

[Pielorinho]

I think it was, Scion, although I'm not really sure. Honestly, I find myself wondering whether either you or Karinsdad are likely to gain anything positive from this exchange. Maybe you are--I don't know. I worry, though, that it's going to continue in a line-by-line dissecting of one another's posts, with plenty of recrimination and accusations of ignorance or high-mindedness, and end up getting me all angry and getting y'all reported multiple times by other posters and end up getting someone banned for a few days.

If it feels to either of you like it's going that way, the best thing to do would be to stop responding to the other poster, use your ignore list, even (although don't announce that you're doing so).

Can y'all both promise me it's not going to go that way?

Daniel

 

[Scion]

I think it was, Scion, although I'm not really sure. Honestly, I find myself wondering whether either you or Karinsdad are likely to gain anything positive from this exchange. Maybe you are--I don't know. I worry, though, that it's going to continue in a line-by-line dissecting of one another's posts, with plenty of recrimination and accusations of ignorance or high-mindedness, and end up getting me all angry and getting y'all reported multiple times by other posters and end up getting someone banned for a few days.

If it feels to either of you like it's going that way, the best thing to do would be to stop responding to the other poster, use your ignore list, even (although don't announce that you're doing so).

Can y'all both promise me it's not going to go that way?

Daniel

Usually I just stop after a few posts if I feel that my comments are falling on deaf ears anyway, such as in the other thread.. it just goes around and around.

Hopefully at least some of the points I made will be made in a way that makes sense though.

I really like hearing how these various uber psions are made.. most of the time they wind up either needing way more powers known than they actually can, or being so one dimensional as to be useless..

but that isnt to say there arent good builds.

I think that myself and some others on here simply disagree on the points of where 'good' becomes 'too good' and it causes frustration (for me because apparently the lines are different for different classes).


Unless some more concrete points come forward with actual data useing rules (instead of, 'I can get uber numbers! its true! and easy!') then I'll step out a bit

 

[Pielorinho]

If I may model how I'd like to see posts written, Scion:

Usually I just stop after a few posts if I feel that my comments are falling on deaf ears anyway, such as in the other thread.. it just goes around and around.

Hmm. I'm not sure we're really getting through to each other in this thread, so I'm going to bow out of this part of the discussion.

Unless some more concrete points come forward with actual data useing rules (instead of, 'I can get uber numbers! its true! and easy!') then I'll step out a bit

When I'm hearing about builds that are unbalanced, it's really helpful to me to see specifics: could you post a specific psion build that you think is unbalanced?

By posting like that, I think you can avoid jabbing people and inflaming tensions. (The rest of your post looked fine to me).

Daniel

 

[Scion]

You are right of course.

So, would anyone like to post a psion build that they feel is unbalanced?

 

[KarinsDad]

So, would anyone like to post a psion build that they feel is unbalanced?

Ok.

Here was my psion at 9th level. I did not go out of my way to build her super powerful, I just took stuff I liked. For example, I did not take Overchannel to boost her powers. I did use the SRD version of the Slayer for her PrC. Course, the other PC psion at the time was about as powerful.

You'll note she only has a few magic items:

+2 Greatsword
+2 Lt. Crossbow
+1 Ring of Protection
Heward’s Handy Haversack
3 Cure Light Wounds Potions
Everburning Torch

Total Worth: ~21,000 GP (in the DMG, 9th level characters should have 36,000 GP)

And the only reason she took the crossbow was because it was worth 8000+ GP. She has never used it (as far as I can remember). Nobody wanted it, so she took it to sell it later.


This was 35 point buy. Course, the other PCs got this too.


Her normal walking around AC was 20 (+1 ring, +2 dex, +7 Inertial Armor)

Her max AC was 37 (+1 ring, +7 Inertial Armor, +5 Force Screen, +3 Thicken Skin, +2 Animal Affinity, +6 Metamorphosis Troll, +3 Precognitive Defense)

Her effective max AC against a single opponent was 39 (i.e. she did Entangling Ectoplasm on them and hit most of the time), 41 if they use a Dex based weapon.

Note: She could use Metamorphosis to transform into creatures with higher AC than the 16 of a Troll as well, she just liked to fight as a Troll (and was easily recognized by her fellow PCs that way). And at level 10 (when she became a 9th level manifester), this max increased by 2.

Now, this maxxed buffed up version did not include a single buff from the other PCs. So, her AC was often augmented by other PCs.

And, I never actually had to buff up this much (I never used Animal Affinity for example), but I could if needed. The most I typically ever buffed was Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Thicken Skin, and Metamorphosis where IA and TS were typically done before combat, so only 2 buffs during combat. In extreme combats where I had to hold off a BBEG monster, 2 rounds of buff were acceptable. I think I might have once done Precognitive Defense with this combination against an extremely powerful foe.

And, it cost her 7 + 5 + 7 + 7 = 26 PP for the really big battles. Sure, that's 35% of her points. But against an extremely powerful opponent, it was worth it. Plus, 14 of these points were still in use for later battles.

Now remember, this is a character with a single +1 Ring of Protection. No armor. No shield. No other magic items for AC. And remember, the other PCs (except for the other Psion) were nowhere near her ability level. They fell unconscious a lot (at least once a level, sometimes a lot more).

And, the other PCs had most of the protective magic items in the party because my Psion could survive encounters where they would fall. Ditto for the other Psion in the group. It was actually funny that his Psion and my Psion occasionally were the only two conscious PCs left standing.


Most of the time, my psion merely walked around with an AC of 24 to 28 (plus buffs from the rest of the PCs) and/or +2/+4 more effective AC from a 1 or 3 PP Entangling Ectoplasm when appropriate, and whaled on creatures with her 6D6 + 5 Greatsword. The Fighter types in the group were very jealous because she averaged as much or more damage then them, even though they had better to hits and more attacks per round on full round attacks.

There was no real need to use up a lot of PP on stuff. Mostly she used it for defense (e.g. Resilience or Resistance or Vigor). Granted, she ran low on PP a lot of days, but she rarely ran out. Our games tend to have 2 to 5 combats per game day (on combative game days). Sometimes more (like in dungeons/ruins/enemy fortresses). Sometimes less (like in the wilderness).


This is also a character who was going to buy some Mithral Full Plate shortly so that she did not have to use PP for Inertial Armor (except for sleeping).


So here we have a character who only once went unconscious in 9 levels (at 3rd level), had one single measly defensive magic item, could fight better or as well as the party fighters when necessarily, who could heal herself, who could heal others, who could manifest damaging powers better than the arcane spell caster could cast damaging spells, and rarely took serious damage (Vigor, Intellect Fortress, Resilience, Resistance). Arcane spell casters cannot come close to being able to do this. For that matter, neither can most divine spell casters.

Granted, she could not cast damaging powers as often as an arcane spell caster. But, she was not designed (like the other psion in the group who was a Kineticist) to do that.


Note: Her skill point total is greater than core rules because of a house rule. Course, the other PCs got this too.

Trinity Darth Sidious			
Character Name	Player	

Egoist 8 / Inspired Slayer 1	Elan        Neutral (leaning towards Good)	
Class & Level	Race	Alignment			Deity

Medium	26	Female	 5’6”	120       Black (Red)	Tan	Green		
Size	Age	Gender	Height	Weight	Hair Color	Skin Color	Eye Color	Home Region

Ability     Score    Modifier	HP:  49/36/24/12	Speed:  30’	Encumbrance/Total weight carried:  Light/30

STR	14	+2	AC:  20  =  +10	+7 	+0	+2	+0	+0	+1	+0	Damage Reduction: 0/–
DEX	14	+2	  Armor	Shield	 Dex	Size	  Natural	Deflect	Misc.	Action Points: (9) 9
CON	14	+2	Touch AC: 13	
INT	18	+4	Flat-Footed AC: 18
WIS	14	+2	Initiative:	+2  =	+2	+0
CHA	07	-2	Total	Dex	Misc.

	Total	Base	Ability	Magic	Misc.	Extra Modifiers
Fortitude	 +4  =	+2	 +2	 +0	+0
Reflex	 +4  =	+2	 +2	 +0	+0	
Will	 +9  =	+7	 +2	 +0	+0	

Base Attack Bonus: +5	 Spell Resistance: 0
Grapple Bonus:	+7   =	+5	+2	+0	+0
	Total	Base	 Str	Size	Misc.

Weapon	Total Attack Bonus	Damage	Critical			
+2 Greatsword	+9	2d6+5	  19-20/x2
Range	Type	Notes		
	Slash	

Weapon	Total Attack Bonus	Damage	Critical	
+2 Light Crossbow	+9	1d8	  19-20/x2
Range	Type	Notes	
 80’	Piercing	

Weapon	Total Attack Bonus	Damage	Critical	
Longspear	+7	   1d8+2	     20/x3
Range	Type	Notes	
 --	Piercing	

Weapon	Total Attack Bonus	Damage	Critical			
Dagger	+7	1d4+2	  19-20/x2
Range	Type	Notes		
10’	P or S	

Armor	Type	Bonus	Max Dex	
None			
Check Penalty	     Speed	Weight	Special	
	–0	normal	   	

Carrying Capacity	 
Light:	58
Medium:	116 
Heavy:	175
 

Skills
cc	Skill Name	 Modifier	Ability	 Ranks	Misc.
x	Appraise	 +4	Int +4	 	  
x	Autohypnosis	 +9	Wis +2	 5	  2
x	Balance	 +2	Dex +2	 	  
	Bluff	 -2	Cha -2	 	  
x	Climb	 +2	Str +2	 	  
	Concentration	 +13	Con +2	 11
x	Craft (any)	 +4	Int +4	 	  
x	Diplomacy	 -2	Cha -2	 	  
x	Disguise	 -2	Cha -2	 	  
x	Escape Artist	 +2	Dex +2	 	  
x	Forgery	 +4	Int +4	 	  
x	Gather Info	 -2	Cha -2	 	  
x	Hide	 +2	Dex +2	 	  
x	Heal	 +7	Wis +2	 5	  
x	Initimidate	 -2	Cha -2	 	  
x	Jump	 +2	Str +2	 	  
x	Know. Arcana	 +9	Int +4	 5	  
	K Dungeoneering	 +12	Int +4	 8
x	Know. Nobility	 +9	Int +4	 5	  
x	Know. Psionics	 +11	Int +4	 5	  2
x	Know. Religion	 +9	Int +4	 5	  
	Listen	 +5	Wis+2	 3
x	Move Silently	 +2	Dex +2	 	  
x	Perform	 -2	Cha -2	 	  
	Psicraft	 +13	Int +4	 7	  2
x	Ride	 +2	Dex +2	 	  
x	Search	 +4	Int +4	 	  
x	Speak Language	 		 5	  
x	Spellcraft	 +9	Int+4	 5	 
	Spot	 +5	Wis+2	 3
	Survival	 +4	Wis+2	 2
x	Swim	 +2	Str +2	 	  
x	Tumble	 +5	Dex +2	 3	  
x	Use Rope	 +2	Dex +2	 	  
	 

Languages
Argon, Common, Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Riedran, Quori, Undercommon
	
Special Abilities/Feats

Psionic Weapon: +2D6 damage with melee weapons when psionic focus used
Greater Psionic Weapon: +4D6 damage with melee weapons when psionic focus used
Tracking
All Martial Weapons
All Armor
Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct
Psionic Meditation: Become psionic focused as move action
Empower Power: 1.5 damage 
Repletion: does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours with 1PP
Resilience: an immediate action, can reduce damage taken by 2 for every 1 PP
Resistance: as an immediate action, +4 racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of my next turn

Psionic Powers
Level	Power	
	2	Animal Affinity, 76
	1	Astral Construct, 77
	3	Body Adjustment, 80
	3	Darkvision, 90
	4	Dimension Door, 92
	3	Dispel Psionics, 94
	2	Empathic Transfer, 98
	4	Energy Adaptation, 99
	3	Energy Bolt, 100
	1	Energy Ray, 103
	1	Entangling Ecto, 104
	1	Force Screen, 108	
	1	Inertial Armor, 113
	4	Intellect Fortress, 113
	4	Metamorphosis, 116
	1	Precogition, Def., 124
	1	Thicken Skin, 137
	1	Vigor, 140

Power DC: 14 + power level
Power Points: 76

   58	+16	 +2
Level	Int	Race

	Equipment	Weight Carried: 30
Worn:	Weight:	Carried:	Weight:
+2 Greatsword	  8	Longspear	9
Sheath & Dagger	  1	
+2 Lt. Crossbow (slung around body) 4	
Bolt case (10)	  1

+1 Ring of Protection

Heward’s Handy Haversack	 5
  2 cubic 20 pounds:
  Tent: 20

  2 cubic 20 pounds:
  Winter Blanket: 3
  4 days Trail Rations: 4
  Waterskin: 4
  Silk Rope knotted: 5
  attached to Grappling Hook: 4
 
  8 cubic 80 pounds (room for 45+ more pounds):
  Masterwork Greatsword (in sheath): 8
  Silver plated dagger with turquoise and jet handle (in sheath): 1
  2 bolt cases (20): 2
  Belt pouch with money: ~3
  Belt pouch with party money: ~2
  Various party treasure (crown, mask, silver chest, etc.)
  10 days Trail Rations: 10
  3 Cure Light Wounds Potions
  Everburning Torch: 1
  Vial of Holy Water: 1
  3 Smokesticks: 1.5
  Belt Pouch with: 0.5
    ID papers with portrait
    Travel papers to Gnomeland
    Travel papers to Sharn
    Orion Letter
    Flint & Steel
    Tindertwig


Found Stuff Kept On Person (in belt pouch)
  Amethyst
  Iron Key

 

[Thanee]

A 10th lvl Psion would have around 100 PP i think, 21powers including up to 4 5th lvl powers. This means he could cast any 1st lvl spell 100 times. Or use 11 5th level powers.

It's a bit more complex than that (keywords: augmentation and scaling), but overall, in a typical campaign, which is not specifically build to ensure balance (i.e. keep psionics in check), they can very easily become overpowered (not so much at low levels, more at mid to high levels). Magic, of course, has the same potential, but not to the same extent. Psionics are just more extreme in most directions. But there are many factors to consider, among them the personal playing style of the group, how the DM handles encounters, how the players play their characters (i.e. make them as powerful as possible, or try to not step into other characters' territory too much, etc).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

So here we have a character who only once went unconscious in 9 levels (at 3rd level), had one single measly defensive magic item, could fight better or as well as the party fighters when necessarily, who could heal herself, who could heal others, who could manifest damaging powers better than the arcane spell caster could cast damaging spells, and rarely took serious damage (Vigor, Intellect Fortress, Resilience, Resistance). Arcane spell casters cannot come close to being able to do this. For that matter, neither can most divine spell casters.

Very interesting character, and thanks for posting her!

I have a couple questions:
1) Would you say that she actually brought down her fair share, or more than her fair share, or less than her fair share, of the enemy?
2) How often did your party get ambushed, and how effective was she in an ambush compared to the others?
3) How many fights on average did your party have in a day?

Daniel

 

[irdeggman]

I'm not familiar with the Inspired Slayer PrCl.

I assume that class gives the martial weapon and armor proficiencies since psions don't have them.

IIRC there are fewer psionic powers that affect groups or areas compared to wixard spells It is true that psionic powers, epecially when augmented, are usually more damaging to a single foe.

This just emphasizes the style of play in whether or not the class is balanced.

When a PC is psionic then it on the DM to insert suitable opponents (i.e., psionic ones) or combination of encounters to balance things out (i.e., more opponents vice a single higher level one).