Is the Psion class balanced?

[Dinkeldog]

I don't "love my familiar". In fact, I rarely take them. I do scribe as a Wizard within reason thought.

I agree Familiars have to be redone.

But to me, this is Scribe Scroll versus Choice.

Yes, Alertness is nice. Until the Familiar dies. Granted, some DMs do not target Familiars. I don't know why. A single Burning Hands at first level will smoke a Famliar.

The value of the familiar isn't in the alertness for me, but in the communication channel. Send the familiar with a scouting member (or when the party splits up for some reason) and the familiar can send back information. Of course here, the psicrystal has it hands down over the familiar--telepathic speech is wonderful. Empathy has its limits.

For a wizard, scribe scroll seems like a natural to me. Wizards can collect all kinds of spells that they don't want to waste memorization slots to cast. When I play a wizard, I've got about one of everything that I won't use and that doesn't augment hugely with level (like magic missile) on a scroll. More than one if a spell is pretty useful but doesn't augment with level. That way I only spend my memorization slots on spells that vary with level.

For the psion, encode stone is marginally more effective than scribe scroll is for a sorcerer. The sorcerer can cast spells more often than the psion, but the psion has some additional power choices that a sorcerer doesn't have. I am finding myself wishing I hadn't spent my bonus first level slot on encode right now, but that might change later. The same goes with all of the item crafting feats, really. Do I really want to take a power so that I can create items with when I'm not going to be putting that item to much proper use.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, I think it's pretty clear here that the Psion is not overpowered, at least with respect to AC. Yes, the Psion can achieve much higher AC's than an equivalent wizard, but it's at a much greater cost than the wizard, with minimal beneficial side effects. About the only downside for the wizard is that it would take seven rounds to complete this buff sequence, as opposed for six for the Psion.

Also, it should be noted that these defensive spells are going to be 36% of the hypothetical Psion's ENTIRE repatoire. Presumeably, the equivalent 8th level wizard is going to have a lot of other nifty spells in her book.

I don't expect this to change anyone's mind, but at least it offers a useful diversion from the usual back and forth of "Psion's are overpowered!!!!" and "No they aren't!!!!!'

It is pretty clear here that your analysis is incomplete and the psion is overpowered.

I'd like to point out several things that your analysis totally ignored:

1) Neither class will hardly EVER buff up this much. So, all the analysis proves is that the Psion can buff up higher if necessary, not that the Psion will be smoking through her PP more.

2) The Wizard does not have a 6D6+5 weapon he can wade into melee with.

3) If the Wizard has his defenses lowered due to Dispel Magic or time, he rarely if ever has all of them available for a fight later in the day. The Psion has access to every power at all times as long as she still has PP. The Wizard has to rely on (typically lesser caster level and hence easier to dispell) scrolls.

4) The Psion can easily manifest while grappled. The Wizard needs a roll. The Psion can easily manifest while pinned or paralyzed. The Wizard (typically) cannot.

5) The Psion can heal herself and others. The Wizard cannot.


Let's look at what might actually happen in a game as opposed to the maxxed out version that almost never happens.

Mage Armor / +4 AC / 1 PP
Shield / +4 AC / 1 PP
Polymorph / +4 AC / 7 PP

AC Improvement / +12
Rounds To Cast / 2 (assume Mage Armor cast ahead of time)
Total Expenditure / 9 PP
Percent of Daily Total / 15%
Point AC Per PP / 4:3


Inertial Armor / +7 AC / 7 PP
Force Screen / +4 AC / 1 PP
Thicken Skin / +1 AC / 1 PP
Metamorphosis / +4 AC / 7 PP

AC Improvement / +16
Rounds To Cast / 3 (assume Inertial Armor cast ahead of time, although TS is often ahead of time too)
Total Expenditure / 16 PP
Percent of Daily Total / 21%
Point AC Per PP 1:1

Yes, the Wizard used less of his % ability. He also has 4 less AC for this battle and several other battles in the day.


But, you looking at percentage is totally inaccurate and one flaw in your reasoning.


In your maxxed example, the Wizard has 41 PP remaining. The Psion has 40 PP remaining. So, even in your extremist pushed to the limit example, the Psion is ACed up more and still has the same amount of power left over.

In my more realistic example that might actually happen in the game, the Psion still has a higher AC. But, the Wizard has 41 PP remaining. The Psion has 60 PP remaining.


More AC. More power left over. Can Fight well in melee without Metamorphosis / Polymorph. Can heal. Etc., Etc., Etc.

Is the difference starting to become apparent yet?

 

[KarinsDad]

For the psion, encode stone is marginally more effective than scribe scroll is for a sorcerer. The sorcerer can cast spells more often than the psion, but the psion has some additional power choices that a sorcerer doesn't have. I am finding myself wishing I hadn't spent my bonus first level slot on encode right now, but that might change later. The same goes with all of the item crafting feats, really. Do I really want to take a power so that I can create items with when I'm not going to be putting that item to much proper use.

Don't worry. Take Psychic Reformation later on and get rid of the feats you don't want.

You don't honestly think this character had Tracking at low level and did not have Martial Weapon Proficiency Greatsword do you?

 

[Thanee]

those two comments seem to be at odds.

Only if you read them out of context.

1st paragraph - bonus feat vs summon familiar
2nd paragraph - Scribe Scroll

Now clear, how it was meant?

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

First, most folks I've known who have familiars keep the familiars tucked inside a robe; it's reasonable (to me at least) to consider this to constitute cover, especially against a low-level spell like Burning Hands. If that doesn't work, a backpack ought to provide good protection.

Second, familiars have improved evasion. That burning hands does, at best, half damage against the familiar.

Third, familiars don't die at 0 hit points. They die at -10, like everyone else.

A burning hands doing max damage--20 points--could almost kill the familiar of a first-level wizard who had 1-2 hp. But it couldn't quite manage the job.

If someone uses their familiar foolishly--if they send their canary out to scout, for example, or if they're constantly asking their toad to deliver touch attack spells--then they should certainly be targeted. But a cautiously-utilized familiar isn't, in my experience, in that much danger.

Yes, I misspoke.

The point I was trying to make is that a Familiar shouldn't be a piece of luggage in the game. Would you like traveling around in a backpack most of the time? If the Familiar is there, it should be an occasional legitimate target and not one that is always hidden. IMO.

Order of the Stick had a pretty good take on it. V was asked "Don't you have a familiar that gives you Alertness?" "Why yes." The Familiar then popped into the strip, V made her Spot roll, then the Familiar popped off of the strip. That was the first time (I think) that the Familar was ever seen out of hundreds of comics (just like often in the game).

Many players use Familiars as appendages or abilities, not as "thinking party members".

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes, I misspoke.

The point I was trying to make is that a Familiar shouldn't be a piece of luggage in the game. Would you like traveling around in a backpack most of the time?

If the alternative were getting burnt to a crisp by a burning hands spell? Yeah, actually, I would.

I work at a humane society, and I do see plenty of people with small pets that they carry around in little knapsacks attached to their backs like babies, or even inside their clothes. One woman I know has a pet snake that often travels around with her, coiled around her forearm inside her shirt.

It's reasonable for familiars to enjoy such conditions, I think. The familiar has a magical connection to the wizard, and is there to enjoy the wizard's company, not to endanger its life.

And when V's familiar appeared for the first time? It was in the second strip .

Daniel

 

[Psion]

Yes, Alertness is nice. Until the Familiar dies. Granted, some DMs do not target Familiars. I don't know why. A single Burning Hands at first level will smoke a Famliar.

DMs don't have to try to screw players over (it's DMs that do which brought the blight to the game known as the pokemount) and I generally consider it a bad thing when NPCs break the fourth wall by engaging in tactical play with knowledge of the game rules that characters within the game world would not credibly consistently engage in.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If they gain initiative or survive an inital assault, said sorcerer/wizard gets nailed by an impromtu power augmented with 100 or so points.

You can't do that, unless your class level was 100. You can only spend as many power points on a power as your total class level. This includes feats and power augments. So if you were a level 9 psion and wanted to use a power that cost 7pp, you could spend 2 more pp in order to augment it, but no more than that.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nonproficiency hurts a bit though I would imagine.

The extra damage from the feat are extra damage dice. Hence, not multiplied on a crit.

One attack per combat generally which has a good chance to miss which kills the extra damage ability..

What nonproficiency? She had Martial Weapon Greatsword Proficiency since the beginning which she dropped near the end of 8th level with Psychic Reformation.

If I had problems hitting, I would up my "to hit" by Entangling the foe. And, the Bless/Prayer spells of the party Cleric helped as well. Or if I need more umph, I would flank, regardless of AoOs against my fairly high AC. Another tactic I used was charge/flank for +4.

It's easier to hit than you think. Armchair analysis doesn't always match with real game experiences.

It seems like this character simply cannot fail checks.. failing a vigor manifestation is likely death.. of course manifesting it in the first place means you didnt do anything that round..

Why dont the bad guys get to use tactics???

Ahh well.. without actually being there I simply cannot point out where things went one way while they could have easily gone some other way with a simple tactic change.

It's not that hard to 5 foot step to put up a Vigor in many circumstances. And, you'd be surprised at how many opponents started targeting my character, especially once they started realizing I could both fight and "cast" without any apparent armor. I especially attracted Rogues like flies to honey. For some reason, they tended to think I was an easy target. Maybe the DM just wanted to sneak attack me a lot.

If I was fighting monsters or fighters, AC boost. If I was fighting spell casters, Precognitive Defense (more for the add to saving throws). Fort Save = 1 PP for Resistance. Reflex Save = 1 PP for Resistance or Intellect Fortress. Will Save = 1 PP for Resistance.

Trust me. The DM threw everything he could at me when it became obvious to an NPC that I was a threat. But, our DM was reasonable about it. NPCs (like the Inspired and their "allies") tended to come at me full bore. Others who did not know her, did not until they learned something about her in combat.

So the dm broke the rules? You cannot use immediate actions while you are flat footed (even if you were laying down). One dead duck. It is an easy rule to miss though.

Yup. He broke the rules. Course, he set up the auto-ambush scenario against the PC in the first place. And, it didn't really change the outcome of the fight though. 2 or 3 more hit points from a dagger. Not exactly a "dead duck". Even with Sneak Attack (which I do not remember her having or not), the outcome would not have changed much.

Face down, eyes closed while paralyzed? no targetting.

Who said the PCs eyes were closed?

Would you as DM rule: "You were getting a massage, so your eyes were closed while doing this, and the poison paralyzed your entire body instantaneously including your shut eyes, and hence, you are dead because you cannot target any of your powers."?

It seems like an extremist adjudication, just to illustrate a point here on the boards.

But then, if it is injury poison and you did resilience away all of the damage then the poison wouldnt take effect.

Well, this was over a year ago. I seem to remember arguing it with the DM, but I could be remembering a different scenario and mixing them up. In any case, he was DM, so his final ruling is what goes. It really didn't make much of a difference and it made for an interesting unusual fight.

So not coup de grace? Was she trying to drown you or was she attacking you?

Surprise Round: Attack

Round One: Full Round Action to pull opponent 5 feet into tub of water, paralyzed character cannot resist, so is held under by weight of attacker automatically

Round Two: Attempt Coup De Grace

Round Three: Attempt Coup De Grace

repeat

If attacking then assassin with a dagger would likely have a few sneak attack dice.. so say 2d4+4+3d6 = avg 19.5 or 10 pp to negate each time, which isnt too bad.

If it was drowning then again underwater, facing down.. no targetting. And being attacked by a pretty inept assassin.. drowning is a slow way to go, it'll take minutes while coup de grace usually takes seconds.. with drowning the person has a chance of becoming unparalyzed or someone else coming by.

Who said she had sneak attack damage? By Assassin, I meant someone trying to kill me.

Who said she held me underwater face down?

All assumptions on your part. Course, it was over a year ago, so I do not remember all of the details either, but I do remember being able to counterattack. Hence, all of your speculations here are null and void.

It is definately rough. Although those who have the fewest ways around it tend to have the best fort saves to avoid it.

Definately a psion advantage, although being unable to move has always made me limit someones view. I'll have to check the rules to make sure I am doing it properly or not, if they mention anything about it at all.

True. But, all you have to see to target an opponent is a single toe with targeting spells / powers. Concealment does not work against targeting spells or powers against a creature (except Rays).

I did a pretty minimal pp expenditure run earlier which focused mainly on useing the feats and it would still run out after 2 - 3 fights easily, and that was 'without' useing the elans ability to absorb damage.

So, I am confused as to how 4 or even 5 combats a day would possibly have enough pp.

Simple. Put up 7 PP Inertial Armor and 1 to 7 PP Thicken Skin ahead of time (depending on whether it looks like a location for one battle or many).

Light battles then become:

1) Put up Force Screen for 1 PP.
2) Wade into battle.
3) Rinse and repeat.

Heavy battles then become:

1) Put up Force Screen for 1 or more PP (depending on what the opposition looks like)
2) Wade into battle.
3) Use Entangling Ectoplasm for 1 or 3 PP.
4) Sometimes, Metamorphis or Dimension Door or Empowered Energy Bolt or other power.


But, the idea is to conserve your PP for when you really need them. We have players in our game who go through spells like there is no tomorrow. Later in the day, they are out of the good ones. Psions always have good ones left over as long as they have a reasonable pool of PP leftover.

People keep focusing on "running out of PP". If you conserve and use low PP powers and only use the high PP powers when it is really critical, you can fight in many battles in a day. Running out of PP is a problem at lower levels. But, once you get to mid-level, a smart player can fight in a lot of combats per day.


And, this is not a Psion who went out of her way to craft psionic items to augment her PP.


The difference, and what makes this Psion overpowered, is that the Wizard either casts spells or he uses a Light Crossbow. Hence, a Wizard has to go through his spells in every combat and most rounds in every combat. Or, he is not helping. This Psion did not. She could wade in and fight instead of using PP every round. Hence, she had PP to spare when really needed.

Now, you can equate this to a Cleric, but again, the Cleric can only Spontaneously cast Cure spells. The Psion can Spontaneously manifest (and spontaneously metapsionic) ALL of her powers. The Cleric has more hit points. The Cleric tends to have better armor which can be offset at lower levels. But, I'd put this character up against a Cleric any day. Especially once she did the PrC into the Slayer class. Her BAB increases by one every level now. She gets 4+Int skill points per level. She can wear any armor. She gets D8 hit points.


And, this particular Psion had very few magical items. She would have been much more effective if she could have acquired better items.


PS. We have a Rogue 2 / Psion 6 / ShadowMind 2 in our current game who does not conserve. She is good for one, maybe two fights. Oh well. If the BBEG Fighter is whaling on her, she does full point Vigors every round or two instead of Dimension Door (which she has, but only uses when grappled by big monsters). My PC would have Dimension Doored away to fight someone else if the BBEG could easily get through my AC. Still 7 PP once, but not 7 PP every round or two.

 

[KarinsDad]

DMs don't have to try to screw players over (it's DMs that do which brought the blight to the game known as the pokemount) and I generally consider it a bad thing when NPCs break the fourth wall by engaging in tactical play with knowledge of the game rules that characters within the game world would not credibly consistently engage in.

So, are you saying it is an invalid tactic for NPCs to target PC Familiars?

Are you saying it is an invalid tactic for PCs to target NPC Familiars?

What exactly are you saying? What knowledge does the NPCs not have?