Is the RPG Industry on Life Support? (Merged w/"Nothing Dies")

Akrasia said:
I've simply encountered far too many people -- even people who dearly love 3E -- who have expressed similar views to think it is as marginal as you make it out to be for players of my generation.

How many is "too many"?

Let's remember the statistics produced by WotC in 1999. 2.5 million gamers. How many have you encountered that said this so that you reall know they feel it? A couple dozen? Where have you encountered them? On places you know with reasonable certainty that the speakers are not preferentially selected for this type of opinion?

In general, very few people have had close enough personal contact with anything resembling a good statistical sampling of the population. Anecdotal evidence is just that - an anecdote.
 

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So, to be clear, it's about 130 posts from my request for "prominent print professionals" to come on and say that things are "absolutely great" for their business.

So far, we've had two takers, Monte Cook and Mongoose Matt.

Monte's company is run out of his house and employs three people. It also has a heavy PDF component, and Monte is perhaps the best-known working game designer in the d20 industry, thanks to talent and excellent self-promotion.

Mongoose releases a stunning volume of product, and (as I understand it) pays well below the industry standard word rates. They expect, and get, an exceptional amount of work out of their employees. Licensed products are a significant portion of their releases.

So the _two_ print publishers who are doing "absolutely great" (according to this thread) are doing great because they have found a way to structure their business profitably. No surprise there. These guys deserve all the success in the world.

But there are only two of them, and that ought to tell you something about the climate out there right now.

It takes business smarts and entreprenurial creativity for a company to succeed in this tiny industry, and these guys have managed to pull it off. I wish there were more success stories out there.

I expect there are, actually, and would love to hear about them.

--Erik Mona
 

Turjan said:
I see this is a lot of work, and an adventure like that would not appeal to experienced players at all because of "all the useless information". For an unexperienced DM, this approach would be a boon :).

FFE put out an adventure like this (albeit for 3.0). And as you expected, some folks blasted it for "all that useless info". But it really wasn't badly written.
 

Paizo?

Erik Mona said:
It takes business smarts and entreprenurial creativity for a company to succeed in this tiny industry, and these guys have managed to pull it off. I wish there were more success stories out there.

I expect there are, actually, and would love to hear about them.

--Erik Mona

I have it in my heart to believe that publishers are doing great, and I would like to hear from the following, if they happen to tune in:

- Paizo (Dungeon, Dragon, a new shop, Undefeated, Amazing, surely it's goin at least ok?)
- Necromancer Games (puts out cool stuff with regular frequency, and I would have thought they were successful, even now at these dark times)
- WotC (maybe, just maybe things are great over there?)
- Green Ronin (what with Black Company, Blue Rose and WFRP on my must have-list, I hope they are doing great)
- White Wolf (surely the new Vampire must sell like hotcakes?)
- SJG (with a new version of GURPS out)
- KenzerCo (doing fine with the D&D license. Or are they? I sort of thought they did)

Hmmmm... I probably missed some, but the above are what I think of as success stories (as well as Malhavoc and Mongoose). Bastion Press, maybe?

Cheers

Maggan
 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I've released one warning in one similar thread, and thought I'd repeat it here. First, I'm thankful to everyone who is turning out cool discussion topic and thoughtful rebuttals to one another; second, I'm concerned about the ever-increasing agitation underlying some of the posts in this and related threads. Let's please be more considerate of one another before someone starts outright sniping and flame wars, and we have to start closing threads.

Thanks to all for listening.

Henry
 

mearls said:
It's simple human nature: a man will always cling to any evidence that supports what he wants to believe and while discounting the rest.

mearls said:
I'd also add one bit of personal, gaming wisdom: People want to buy fun games.

Well, the interesting thing to me is, why don't people want to believe in fun things?

It definitely wasn't the case that folks on the panel were saying that "ten years from now, the new rules-light story-driven system I'm cooking up will have revitalized the industry and brought in hordes of cool young players, relegating D&D to the dustbin of history". Test as it might one's powers of self-deception, that would at least be a fun non-gloomy thing to believe.
 
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I'm 31, possibly professional, and I detest DM'ing 3.x edition. The 1e campaign, which started out at 3.0e has come to an end. I await Castles & Crusades to deliver d20 fantasy role playing without the amount of baggage I find causes me too much prep time and makes the game run to slowly. This is only my opinion and is not representative of the gaming population as a whole. I know I'd rather not game than DM 3e again.
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
I'm 31, possibly professional, and I detest DM'ing 3.x edition. The 1e campaign, which started out at 3.0e has come to an end. I await Castles & Crusades to deliver d20 fantasy role playing without the amount of baggage I find causes me too much prep time and makes the game run to slowly. This is only my opinion and is not representative of the gaming population as a whole. I know I'd rather not game than DM 3e again.

My experience seems to be the flipside of that coin.

I'm 39, a professional. I've been playing D&D since 1982. D&D Basic, AD&D, 2nd Edition AD&D, 3E, 3.5.

The campaign I originally started out playing in, in 1982, is still going, though 2nd Edition about killed it (we've converted the campaign, and the PCs, from AD&D to 2E to 3E, and now to 3.5). 2E drove me nuts, and when I discovered game systems that were a little more coherent (such as West End's d6 Star Wars), I moved over to those. The groups I play in (and, admittedly, act as the "lead dog" for) played almost no actual D&D from about 1993 on, and I bought almost nothing that TSR / WotC put out for 2E from that point forward.

When 3E came out, it reinvigorated my interest in D&D, and did the same for the players in my groups. Most of my players love coming up with concepts for their characters -- and, you know what? Most of them are role-playing concepts, not "what's the fastest way I can get to this cool PrC" concepts. We do have a few munchkiny players, and yeah, the rules do seem to let them go a bit nutty sometimes, but the "storyteller" and "problem-solver" players don't seem to be so horribly encumbered by the rules that they can't enjoy doing their thing, too.

The mechanics are so much simpler now than before, and IME, once a player gets the basics, learning the rest doesn't seem to be a big issue.

Yes, there are a *ton* of optional rules (esp. if you include the third-party stuff), but there's no rule that you have to use 'em. In our groups, we use the core books, the Complete books, and the FR books (in one group, I'm running a campaign in the Silver Marches, and that book has proven a wealth of inspiration for the adventures I've written). I don't buy every single book WotC releases, but clearly 3E / 3.5 has strongly increased how much of my disposable income is going to gaming in general, and Renton in particular.

I DM regularly for two groups. In one (the Silver Marches one), I write everything we play. Once I come up with the plot, it takes me about 2 hours to stat everything up (and my recent discovery of Jamis Buck's NPC Generator is cutting that time even more) -- I don't find that to be too odious a load. In the other group I DM, I use published adventures; the biggest time sink there is reading the reviews here on EN World to see which modules are worth my time.

I have no idea if my experience is typical or not. All I can say is, for me, 3E brought me back to D&D, and it's keeping me here.
 
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kenobi65 said:
I have no idea if my experience is typical or not. All I can say is, for me, 3E brought me back to D&D, and it's keeping me here.
The same here! I quit D&D when I went to college (2 part time jobs and a full time class load), and didn't come back until a year after 3E first came out (2001). I started a campaign then which is now only reaching the end (with the PCs at 18th level). I started with the red box D&D Basic set, and AD&D 1e, and there's no contest. 3.5E will keep me playing far longer than the older editions.
 

Maggan said:
I would like to hear from the following, if they happen to tune in:
- Paizo (Dungeon, Dragon, a new shop, Undefeated, Amazing, surely it's goin at least ok?)

Erik Mona is the editor of both Dungeon and Dragon, and since he's the one challenging other professionals to speak out, I think you can safely assume that Paizo is not doing "absolutely great".
 
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