Is the RPG Industry on Life Support? (Merged w/"Nothing Dies")

[Davelozzi]

Yes, you can play Halo 2 and fire a rocket launcher and drive the Weasle and do all kinds of great things, but try and tell the computer that you want to try and grab a rope, hang from it with one hand, shoot the rocket launcher at the baddies with the other and use the recoil to swing you up to the next level. I guarantee the computer will not let you...but your DM might.

Only if he's a cheater...or your character has the "Rocket Swinger" feat from Complete Gunner.

 

[drothgery]

This is, and probably always will be, an ongoing argument among game designers. On the one hand, you have those who say that writing the products that you would like to have is good because writing about something that is personally interesting and appealing almost certainly leads to a good product. Writing about something you're not interested in, or attempting to guess what an audience you are not a part of wants, leads to disaster. The other side of the argument says that game designers are old, jaded fuddy-duddies whose tastes so completely diverge from the mainstream audience (or who don't even play the game anymore) that the real goal of the job should be to find out what gamers want and give it to them. Both arguments have their points and their holes, but it's an interesting topic.

At this point, I'd think there's a decent sized set of married-with-children game designers, who'd like to build something their playtesters, err, children, would enjoy playing (or, if you're feeling purely capitalistic, something that a geek parent would buy for his/her kid). Just a thought.

 

[Turjan]

I think you need to be honest and put "you" in the place of "most busy professionals."

This busy professional with three kids says you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

And when I tried to simplify things for my 8-yo daughter by letting her pick class skills and max them, after 1 game, she wanted to know how you REALLY do it. I think that gives the lie to some flabbergasting "learning curve."

To me, it appears that you don't like the structure of the system and are trying to manufacture reasons that other people should dislike it as well.

I think that your personal experience does not really count, when we want to consider whether D&D 3.x has a steep learning curve or not. For people who come from previous incarnations of the game, 3.x just poses the challenge to change some of the well known concepts. For people who learn the game from a versed game master, the introduction to any game gets pretty easy, no matter how complicated the game really is.

In order to get a realistic estimate of the learning curve involved in starting with D&D 3.x, imagine a group of 5 people who have never played any incarnation of a table top RPG and who want to start the game with just the help of the core rulebooks. That's the situation I was in. You can ask me how steep the learning curve is .

 

[Akrasia]

Pot, kettle.

Hmmm ... I don't recall engaging in any drama queen posturing, implying that you are dishonest, or accusing you of 'manufacturing reasons', or any such thing ...
:\

No, just the latest is a long line of those determined to tell me I am having badwrong fun. ...

Ummm ... no. I honestly don't know where you're getting this.
Really, I simply don't understand this kind of reaction.

 

[Akrasia]

... We seem to have far fewer rules disputes than in the past - they were a weekly occurence in 2E days, and they would sometimes get fairly heated. Any rules disputes at all in 3E seem to be few & far between....

Well, I am not sure how well the frequency of 'rules disputes' tracks the complexity of the game system in question. E.g. Rolemaster is a rather complex game, but all the rules are clearly presented, so there are few 'disputes' (though you have to hunt a while to find the relevant rule/chart).

Our gaming problem is not finding gamers (we can find plenty of those) - it is now that we're all in our 30s, with one guy in his early 40s - we just do not have the time to devote to gaming. Two of us are married with non-gaming wives and we have 3 small children between the two of us. Our group DM had major surgery. The DM's best friend has an odd job that requires him to work alternate Friday nights or Saturday nights. The two guys that can make it weekly are the old time stereotype of geeks: unmotivated geeky types with no social lives.

This observation actually supports my point -- albeit specifically from a DM's perspective. Given these kinds of demands, a number of DMs I know find it very difficult to find the time to properly prep for 3e games.

Remember: the DM has to know all the rules (including all the optional ones that are going to be used), has to prep all the statblocks, keep track of every NPC's abilities during the session, keep track of the PCs' abilities between sessions (in order to plan new encounters) and so forth.

In contrast, the demands on players are pretty minimal. Indeed, one can be a good player and know only those rules that apply to the character she is running.

This is why, in the future, I will be most happy to play in 3e games, but will probably never DM the system again. (There are other reasons, but this is the one relevant to the current debate concerning 3e's ability to keep 'greying' players.)

 

[Psion]

I think that your personal experience does not really count, when we want to consider whether D&D 3.x has a steep learning curve or not.

And the fact that an 8 year old child "got it" and actively lept past my attempts to simplify the system says nothing about the learning curve?

In order to get a realistic estimate of the learning curve involved in starting with D&D 3.x, imagine a group of 5 people who have never played any incarnation of a table top RPG and who want to start the game with just the help of the core rulebooks. That's the situation I was in. You can ask me how steep the learning curve is .

It may well have been, but how typical is this case such that you can assert that it's "the important one".

I doubt that there are many new groups that start without an experienced player introducing them.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

ugh...shall we just all give up on life and curl up in a corner because everything is horrible? What ever happened to having FUN?!

 

[Psion]

Hmmm ... I don't recall engaging in any drama queen posturing,

Nor do I. I guess such judgements are in the eye of the beholders.

Ummm ... no. I honestly don't know where you're getting this.

Look, its as simple as this. You stated your perception of what "most" 30-something professionals perception of the game is, which paints a picture which I consider innacurate, so I countered with my perception of the game, its learning curve, and its reception among 30-something professionals.

 

[Akrasia]

Nor do I. I guess such judgements are in the eye of the beholders.
...
This busy professional with three kids says you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Okay, I lessen the charge to unnecessary hyperbole.

Look, its as simple as this. You stated your perception of what "most" 30-something professionals perception of the game is, which paints a picture which I consider innacurate, so I countered with my perception of the game, its learning curve, and its reception among 30-something professionals.

Ummm ... and how is this related to your charge that I am "...just the latest is a long line of those determined to tell me I am having badwrong fun..."

In any case, yes, we are drawing from different samples -- neither your perception nor mine is 100 percent accurate. I could very well be in the minority -- though I do note that my perception (even if it is the 'minority' view among 30+ gamers) has also been frequently expressed by other posters on many different RPG boards (including this thread). So even if it is a minority view, it is widespread enough to be a noteworthy phenomenon.

Finally, you will note that I have never implied, in this or another thread, that you were being dishonest, or accused you of 'manufacturing' reasons to convince other people not to enjoy their games (or any other bizarre malevolent motive, for that matter). It would be nice if you could extend me the same courtesy.

 

[WizarDru]

Remember: the DM has to know all the rules (including all the optional ones that are going to be used), has to prep all the statblocks, keep track of every NPC's abilities during the session, keep track of the PCs' abilities between sessions (in order to plan new encounters) and so forth.

Why would I remember something that isn't actually true? That certainly is one way to play, certainly, but it isn't the only way. What a DM ought to know is where to find specific rules, when he has need of them. The same applies with track PC abilities....if that's what you enjoy, then do that. However, some games don't bother worrying about those kinds of details. And if you've ever read Piratecat's story hour, you might agree that a few cosmetic changes can render a boring creature into a unknown entity full of interest and challenge.

Regardless, the fact is that D&D is not dying. The market is not dying. Is it robust? Probably not. Is it growing? Not in the same lightning fashion it did in the early '80s, no. Has WotC made significant attempts this year to grow their market? Yes, they have.