Is the RPG Industry on Life Support? (Merged w/"Nothing Dies")

[Psion]

Ummm ... and how is this related to your charge that I am "...just the latest is a long line of those determined to tell me I am having badwrong fun..."

It helps if you quote the whole thing. Namely, the winky at the end. It was meant tongue-in-cheek.

In any case, yes, we are drawing from different samples -- neither your perception nor mine is 100 percent accurate.

Indeed. Which is why I offered my counterpoint to offer a more complete picture.

So even if it is a minority view, it is widespread enough to be a noteworthy phenomenon.

Discontents do tend to speak up. But I wouldn't tend to read that into any grass roots movement.

Finally, you will note that I have never implied, in this or another thread, that you were being dishonest, or accused you of 'manufacturing' reasons to convince other people not to enjoy their games (or any other bizarre malevolent motive, for that matter).

I do not think you are being dishonest and apologize for any statement you thought implied that. I do think you are projecting, or putting a more objective tone on your difficulties with the game than is perhaps accurate.

 

[Akrasia]

Discontents do tend to speak up. But I wouldn't tend to read that into any grass roots movement.

I don't know what you mean by a 'grass roots movement', but I do think that you are incorrect in thinking that this is simply the view of a few 'discontents'. I've simply encountered far too many people -- even people who dearly love 3E -- who have expressed similar views to think it is as marginal as you make it out to be for players of my generation. You might not like to admit it, but there really are people out there who can't afford the time (or just lack the energy) to do what is necessary in order to DM 3E because of other commitments, or who are frustrated at how slow their once/month game actually goes.

The fact that people raise these concerns on a 3E-focused site like this one suggests that, if anything, the number of 'greying' gamers in the predicament that I describe might be much greater than could accurately be inferred from the (rather noticeable) number of posts here.

I do think you are projecting, or putting a more objective tone on your difficulties with the game than is perhaps accurate.

Okay, right back at you: I think you might be unfairly projecting your own experience onto the 30+ gaming population. An ENworld reviewer might not have the best perspective on things like the 'learning curve' involved for casual gamers trying to DM an occasional game.

In any case, the problems that I have with DM'ing the game are 'objective' ones, in that they are real. And they are objective in that other people have them too. I never claimed that they were universal. As for how common they are in the 30+ group, I just don't have the data. But even if it is a minority, I suspect that it might be a sufficiently sizeable minority for it to be worthwhile for game producers to notice (and some are starting to).

 

[Fenes]

You can handle all the supposed "overcomplexity" if you just keep a tight reign as a DM, and go with core stuff only, exceptions approved when not unbalancing. It is not as if all your NPCs all need to be as detailed and minmaxed as your PCs. If you NPC fighter lacks the punch, add a level or two, or add some one-shot item to him.

Much of the "DMing takes too much preparation time" problem can also be solved by banning some problematic spells and abilities. I know, most on these boards will have a counter tactic or strategy to any problem spell, but if you don't have the time to prepare each baddie (or, in my case, simply have no wish to spend that much time only so the party mage can use problem spell N. 2), ban the problem spell or ability.

You can also stick to low to mid levels, and avoid the hassle of a high level campaign where you need to keep track of dozens of possible spoiler abilities at once.

 

[diaglo]

Discontents do tend to speak up. But I wouldn't tend to read that into any grass roots movement.

<<<<< look at my location.

grass, no roots, mang.

 

[Turjan]

And the fact that an 8 year old child "got it" and actively lept past my attempts to simplify the system says nothing about the learning curve?

You are mixing up two of my answers here. Your quote was referring to me talking about the learning curve of somebody who knew already previous incarnations of D&D when he switched to 3.x (e.g., a certain Psion ). I suppose you agree that this is much easier than starting from scratch with 3.x. Concerning your example of the 8 year old child, I said:

For people who learn the game from a versed game master, the introduction to any game gets pretty easy, no matter how complicated the game really is.

So, I never questioned this part of your post.

It may well have been, but how typical is this case such that you can assert that it's "the important one".

I doubt that there are many new groups that start without an experienced player introducing them.

See? With communication-based activities in the decline, you cannot take it for granted that the hobby survives by experienced players recruiting new ones alone. I think that the game has to address this problem somehow. This means specifically that we need some material that makes it easier for somebody to start as a DM from scratch, without the help of an experienced player. That's the learning curve I was referring to, and I think this has to be addressed to revert a decline in the hobby. I was not implying that the "Basic D&D" set is the adequate solution for this problem.

 

[Psion]

I suppose you agree that this is much easier than starting from scratch with 3.x. Concerning your example of the 8 year old child, I said:So, I never questioned this part of your post.

Okay.

See? With communication-based activities in the decline, you cannot take it for granted that the hobby survives by experienced players recruiting new ones alone. I think that the game has to address this problem somehow. This means specifically that we need some material that makes it easier for somebody to start as a DM from scratch, without the help of an experienced player. That's the learning curve I was referring to, and I think this has to be addressed to revert a decline in the hobby. I was not implying that the "Basic D&D" set is the adequate solution for this problem.

Having not seen the new basic set, I can't say whether or not it fills that niche. I certainly feel like stripping down the whole game to be an introductory set would be the wrong thing to do. IMO, what we need is a "stepping stone."

 

[NewJeffCT]

This observation actually supports my point -- albeit specifically from a DM's perspective. Given these kinds of demands, a number of DMs I know find it very difficult to find the time to properly prep for 3e games.

Remember: the DM has to know all the rules (including all the optional ones that are going to be used), has to prep all the statblocks, keep track of every NPC's abilities during the session, keep track of the PCs' abilities between sessions (in order to plan new encounters) and so forth.

In contrast, the demands on players are pretty minimal. Indeed, one can be a good player and know only those rules that apply to the character she is running.

This is why, in the future, I will be most happy to play in 3e games, but will probably never DM the system again. (There are other reasons, but this is the one relevant to the current debate concerning 3e's ability to keep 'greying' players.)

While I somewhat agree with your point of view, the DM always did more work in 1E & 2E as well. And, I think once several more years have passed, DMs will be able to "wing" NPCs more naturally in 3E/3.5 (or 4.0, which will hopefully be evolutionary like 1E to 2E) by just thinking - "ok, bartender, a bit older, so a 2nd level expert, let's give him 3 ranks in Bluff" ... I think part of the reason that some find 1E / 2E so easy is that they've been doing it for 15-20-25 years, so it comes naturally to them. Now that those people are 30+, it is harder for them to do something new. As an example, my wife grew up in a huge city overseas and didn't learn to drive until she came to America 5 1/2 years ago when she was 29. While she is a careful driver, I doubt many would consider her a good driver just because she didn't have those teen & early 20s years to make driving come naturally to her. It was harder for her to pick it up at a later age and get some things down-pat that we take for granted when driving.

However, you're right that 3E/3.5 is easy from a player's point of view, probably easiest of 1E / 2E.

 

[Psion]

I don't know what you mean by a 'grass roots movement', but I do think that you are incorrect in thinking that this is simply the view of a few 'discontents'.

I remain to be convinced of that.

The fact that people raise these concerns on a 3E-focused site like this one suggests that, if anything, the number of 'greying' gamers in the predicament that I describe might be much greater than could accurately be inferred from the (rather noticeable) number of posts here.

I think you are rather optimistic in that extrapolation. There are typically over 1000 users online at any one time. That you, Belen, and a handful of others like to voiciferously raise your objections is not that big a deal. (And there are others who would not hesitate to tell you that even as far as that goes, a board isn't fully representative of gamers)

Even inasmuch as you might represent a significant body of posters (and I don't doubt that you do), that different people like their games different ways in unsurprising.

The only genuine evidence to be offered is that collected by WotC in selecting criteria for the creation of 3e, and the fact that 3.xe remains the hottest selling game on the market.

In any case, the problems that I have with DM'ing the game are 'objective' ones, in that they are real. And they are objective in that other people have them too. I never claimed that they were universal. As for how common they are in the 30+ group, I just don't have the data. But even if it is a minority, I suspect that it might be a sufficiently sizeable minority for it to be worthwhile for game producers to notice (and some are starting to).

Great. I'm glad you found someone to cater to your specific needs.

 

[mearls]

Any idea what is right then?

I don't think we'll ever have a clear picture of what's going on with RPGs at any given moment. All we can really do is take everything we learn from the current project and apply it to the next one.

I think there's a tendency in RPG publishing to bury the facts behind wishful thinking and egotism. People want to believe that Vampire and Star Wars ushered in massive amounts of new gamers, because that means that D&D isn't as popular as everyone thinks and that a new game really could become a massive hit. People really want to believe that rules-light, story-centric games are just waiting to breakout and crush D&D. People really want to believe that their products are every bit as good as they think they are.

It's simple human nature: a man will always cling to any evidence that supports what he wants to believe and while discounting the rest.

I guess that's the closest thing we have to conventional wisdom in RPGs, but I think that applies to life in general.

I'd also add one bit of personal, gaming wisdom: People want to buy fun games.

 

[Turjan]

I certainly feel like stripping down the whole game to be an introductory set would be the wrong thing to do. IMO, what we need is a "stepping stone."

I agree. I always thought a well commented introductory adventure would serve this purpose. I don't mean these short introductory adventures like in the starting box, which leave more questions open than they answer. Just think of a version of the "Sunless Citadel" that would be really well commented. The adventure is pretty good at showing many different aspects of 3E. What it lacks for complete beginners are references. E.g., when the players find their first potion, give a reference on how to identify magic stuff with a reference to the page in the correct core book and, maybe, a short repetition of the basics. Or the ambush scene, think of cover rules. How to bypass caltrops. Tell, when it should be about time to level up for a 4 people group with reference to the XP calculation table.

I see this is a lot of work, and an adventure like that would not appeal to experienced players at all because of "all the useless information". For an unexperienced DM, this approach would be a boon .